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Weekly Update 2020-2 (Development)
5 years ago - Edited 5 years ago2,224 words
Last week I talked about the battle mechanics; this week I mostly want to talk about some story stuff!

I'm currently focused on planning Divine Dreams' story. I want to have all the main events planned out in some detail before I properly begin, so then the development will just be translating and elaborating on them, and I'll always know where I'm going and what's coming. Since I largely made MARDEK up as I went along, I ended up wasting a lot of time trying to decide what was going to happen next, or even rewriting earlier bits to have them better fit with new ideas I'd come up with. I'm hoping the relative certainty of a solid plan will be conducive to productivity. That was certainly the case with Taming Dreams, where I thoroughly planned like I'm planning this now. (I'm not writing all the conversations and everything, but I'm laying out a skeleton that I'll flesh out later.)

The creative process is one of diminishing returns though, especially with something like this. Over the first few days of planning, I laid out a broad-strokes concept for the entire story, but with each subsequent day I've added less and less. Everything I add is important, and I feel like I'm coming up with at least one really good idea! during every brainstorming session, but all of them have to take into account everything else that's already been plotted, and I spend a lot of time reading over what I've already written. I suppose it's similar to filling a room with furniture: when the room's empty, you can put whatever wherever it seems best, but as you try and fit more and more things in there, you have to move things around to get them to all work together, and regularly take steps back to look at the big picture and make sure everything's working.

I can't really talk about most of my ideas without MAJOR SPOILERS, unfortunately, so I'm having to keep it all to myself and hope it'll eventually be interesting to people who aren't me. Still, I want to share at least a little bit.

As I've explained previously, the story's very strongly inspired by MARDEK, and by Taming Dreams, which was meant as a reimagining of MARDEK in much the same way this is. You could say ∞ the Neverwinter Nights module ∞ was the first draft, MARDEK was the second, Taming Dreams the third, this the fourth.

Here's a sketchy mock-up of the world map, which you might have seen already if you follow me on Twitter. Its purpose was to help me plan the total number of areas and their geographical relationships with one another, so then I can make better sense of the planned plot in my mind.



In MARDEK, the world was called "Belfan", which was just a random, meaningless fantasy word that came to mind. In the years since then, I've become very fond of meaningful names, so here I'm going with "Numina", from "numinal", meaning divine. Numina is just one continent in the Bronze Archipelago, rather than an entire planet in itself. I can't remember the names of the continents in MARDEK because they too were just random fantasy words (was one Fengue? Hadris? Something like that? Both six letters actually, so that's nice). Here, I like the idea of incorporating the mind/body divide from the gameplay into the literal lay of the land, plus I find the name "Godsbod" funny, and some of the place names/themes gain added meanings from their positioning here.

The first chapter (technically chapter 4), which is based on MARDEK 1 and 2, would take place on the northern continent. The next would unlock the southern one too, and the final chapter would be somewhere else, very much like in MARDEK.

Most areas are direct equivalents of MARDEK's, and most of the new names were originally planned for Taming Dreams. Goznor's now Gemsand, Canonia is Wyrmourn. Castle Goznor is the Cloud-Clad Castle. The Gem Mine is a place called the Dreamcave, which has more story significance. Lake Lacrimosa seems an appropriate name for a sorrowful lake of tears, cried from an eye. Some forests have been combined into the Lifewood, this time in the north, though I might rename it to something more cerebral. Aeropolis' first letter's tall lines have divorced (the left one cheated) and now it's Heropolis, a fitting name for the capital city of the courageous Bold. Maybe Crimson Peak - which is one of a few areas I might ∞ rename ∞ - could house a hot brothel or something. Hilarious, surely. Rift is an underground village, like Xantusia.

I wouldn't want to make the world larger than this because I need to be sure it's not too big to make a finished game. So I think this scale should work fine for what I have planned.



I'm giving a lot of focus to each character, and having much of the plot driven by aspects of each of their personalities.

For example, each character has a motto (or perhaps I'll use the term 'dream'): a short phrase that encapsulates their driving motivations, hopes, and perspective on the world and themselves. I came up with this for Taming Dreams originally, and used it as the basis of each character's musical theme, which I'll be doing here too. It gave more meaning to the characters' leitmotifs, and it made them easier to compose as well. Plus the challenge of succinctly summarising a character's entire outlook and story role like that is a an interesting and very valuable creative exercise!

I've yet to write mottos for most of the cast, but I'll likely do that over the coming week, and I want to try to compose some rudimentary leitmotifs when I do. I do have one for Dharma, which would also be used as the main theme of the game, much as Rohoph's leitmotif was also the Main Theme in both MARDEK and Taming Dreams. I'll write another post specifically about the music next week, unless something else comes up. For now, here's what I have for Dharma:

Divine dreams die in enlightened eyes
This sacred lie, this jail I deny


That explains his outlook on the world and himself, his values, and his story role and ultimate aim, all in a succinct, poetic snippet. I like it, since it doesn't really give anything away; you have to know what it's talking about first, then you'll be able to look back and think "ohhh, that's why it was that!".

I've had a new, similar idea this time which I like just as much. In addition to a motto/dream, each character also has a personal demon, or perhaps I'll use the term 'nightmare' to contrast with 'dream'. This is sort of like an embodiment of their deepest fears; kind of like the boggart from Harry Potter, though deeper. It's already been established that the miasma forms people's thoughts into physical monsters, so it's an extension of that.

It's essentially an elaborated version of something from Taming Dreams. In that, there were bosses such as this "Anxark", which was born from Deugan's anxiety in that particular situation:



There was also a boss called "Misfitoucant" in the third episode of that which represented Meraeadyth's sorrow about not fitting in. I don't think those were ever explicitly referred to as the character's personal demons/nightmares though; rather, they were one-shot bosses meant to be relevant to the momentary situation, but nothing really beyond that.

Now, though, each character has their own 'personal boss' which represents their biggest fears about themselves or the world. I think having to battle these makes certain sections way more interesting than if you were to just face some random monster that was never mentioned before and never will be again.

For example, take this section from MARDEK 2:

While Mardek, Deugan, and Emela are passing through Lake Qur on their way to somewhere else, they encounter a young girl called Elwyen, who tells them that the Lake Hag has cast a curse on her parents, turning them to crystal. The three guards venture under the lake using Emela's waterbreathing magic, and find and kill a strange creature called the Lake Hag. However, this doesn't free Elwyen's parents, and they carry on their way.


Here's a rough idea of what I have planned for the revised version of that section in this (some of it; I don't want to spoil it for you):

Because she's searching for something she believes might be found here (following on from previous plot events), Emeela travels with Mardek and Deugan to Lake Lacrimosa, a sorrowful place wet with perpetual rain. She speaks of going underwater using her waterbreathing magic to find what she's looking for, but before she's finished, there's a loud splash and a cry for help! Emeela and Deugan flinch and hesitate, but Mardek immediately jumps into the water, and saves Elwyen from drowning! She says she fell in and can't swim, and now Mardek saved her; "my hero!!". They explain that they're just about to go under the water, but Elwyen begs them to take her with them; it was actually a monster that dragged her under, and you have to go on an adventure with her to defeat it or else it'll drag other people in too!! She needs to come because she'll show you where it is!! Mardek is concerned, and lets her come along. You search around underneath the lake, but you can't find this monster she claims dragged her under. Deugan, eager to impress Emeela by courageously expressing his disapproval of this flirty girl, suggests they should just go back; she was probably just lying. Feeling that her adventure is over, the spotlight is no longer hers and she'll be trapped in her dismal little village alone once more, Elwyen begins to panic, and her Haggird appears before the group!




Elwyen in this has a bird aesthetic motif, and she sings and dreams of (metaphorically) flying freely on wild adventures. She's neurotic in an extroverted way - one of those wide-eyed 'crazy' manic pixie dream girls who lives the wild life because of insecurities - and her biggest fear is being trapped, denied flight, denied attention, becoming ugly and unable to be loved because she's no longer beautiful. This emaciated, wingless, heart-caged, wretched thing - this Haggird (haggard + hag + bird + gird) - represents a fate she fears above all else.

Much more interesting than a 'Lake Hag', don't you think?

Battles against these nightmares/demons would have their own special music, and they'd recur at important character moments. The battles against them would do something special with the character they were for: either that character would be unable to act some or all of the time (they can't face their deepest fear), or they'd be the only one who could act while everyone else becomes a frozen silhouette. The nightmare/demon might also only attack them, or at least attack them preferentially. I'll have to decide what seems the most emotionally resonant (them being helped out by their friends, or them overcoming their fears alone). Maybe it'll be situational rather than a hard rule.

Each recurs on important occasions through the story, at moments of important character growth. I like that it ties together gameplay, world lore (miasma forming monsters), and character arcs. It's the only place though where the monsters you face represent characters' specific mental states; most of the wild ones would be born of general ambient thoughts that have collected there over many years.

Hopefully that gives you some idea of what I mean about basing the story heavily on MARDEK, but improving it in the process!



One final thing: I've also been coming up with some character surnames, which I can't imagine would be used much or at all - perhaps they'd be restricted to the Encyclopaedia, like in MARDEK - but it gives some extra colour to each of them. Unlike the fairly random words the MARDEK characters had as surnames (I can't remember any of them), these too are meaningful, and they're made of common words too so they're easy to understand and remember. I'm not worrying about the six letters thing.

Here are four examples:

Mardek Honeyblood
Deugan Charhearth
Emeela Fathom
Elwyen Nympheather

They're all subject to change, as is everything, but I like fleshing them out in every little way that I can!



I'm going to keep focusing on the story planning until I'm finished with that. I've definitely got the big picture now, but there are still a lot of details to iron out. Once I've done that, I'll aim to complete a demo, likely of the fantasy sequence at the start, up until the transition to the 'real world'. That shouldn't take too long once I start focusing on it. Once that's done, I'll start on promotion, re-releasing the originals, and running a Kickstarter to build up funding for the rest. I can't do everything at once though, and I think it'd be foolish to jump to those later stages too eagerly, without first building a solid foundation.

43 COMMENTS

Ampersand68~5Y
That "bosses embodying personal demons" motif reminded me of how bosses in Nier: Automata would reflect certain aspects of the human condition (though that's probably more because Nier was already on the mind). Interestingly, most major characters are named after famous philosophers, and the game in general is quite philosophical, despite the main character not really bothering with that kind of stuff. I don't know whether you'd enjoy this game, given that it's a hack-and-slash open-world RPG type thing, and it is a fair bit pricier than indie games (and also represents a major time commitment- a full playthrough clocks in at around 40 hours), but from a story perspective, it certainly is thought-provoking, especially if you've had some experience with existentialist philosophy beforehand. That "Haggird" boss reminds me of a particular boss in Nier: Automata, actually- even the "cage" aesthetic as part of her design! And I certainly like it when games delve into the "psychological" side of things!
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Tobias 1115~5Y
I watched a full longplay of NieR: Automata (and the original NieR, neither of which I'd ever heard of before they randomly appeared in my recommendations) a couple of years ago, during a very dark period of my life where I was seriously considering suicide... which isn't particularly relevant, but it's true. Surprisingly it's a warm memory rather than a terrible one, in the way that a lot of things can be turned warm just because they're remembered. The game seemed a bit erratic in terms of story and characterisation, though that was likely due to watching it rather than playing it. Maybe I should at some point. I like the soundtrack a lot!
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Ampersand68~5Y
I think the characterization might seem "erratic" because the player is not privy to a lot of information about the characters beforehand (for example, 2B's true nature), which informs their actions. Though that said, Yoko Taro (the game's director) also does love to explore the extremities of the human condition- his Drakengard series (of which Nier is a spinoff) is even more extreme in its characterization and dark in its content matter than Nier. I definitely do think that there are aspects of Nier: Automata that are better appreciated by playing it (especially the ending), and the gameplay itself is quite slick (especially when compared to the original Nier or Drakengard), though it does suffer from balancing issues later on in the game after you've completed many of the sidequests and upgraded weapons.
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purplerabbits148~5Y
I love the way how Elwyen's part of the story plays out. Adding the symbolism on top of it becamethe cherry on top. If there are multiple encounters, maybe the bosses will be slightly different in form. I'm thinking that if the players do defeat the monster, the next time the exact same creature shows up, then the players expect the exact similar or exactly the same way of taking it down.

If the players face the unwinnable plot battles then the same creature can work again. The God Cat unwinnable plot battles from ebf 4 come to mind. Though the two encounters were with the holy and demonic sides of God Cat so there was a visual difference.

Maybe multiple times can have the "personal demon" evolve like a pokemon. And irl personal demons do grow and change.

I think that the battles with the "personal demon" works best with the per situational battle mechanics. Since there is some parralells to social interactions, facing ones fears with people is some what different when those fears manifest while alone.

I can see reasons on why the "personal demon" says the same. Firstly less time spent on more art assests the better. Secondly, if people know that the "personal demon" means shite's about to hit the fan, then the player will feel that dread.
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Tobias 1115~5Y
I can definitely understand the appeal of an evolving nightmare, different every time you see it, but you hit the nail on the head with the bit about time spent on art assets! Reusing things might evoke feelings of familiarity, so it could work. Though everything's still in the relatively early planning stages currently, so we'll have to see how everything works out!

Some of the nightmare battles in my current plan are unwinnable, though, with defeating the nightmare being an important end goal. Though too many unwinnable battles wouldn't really be fun, of course.
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Tobias 1115~5Y
It probably would make the most sense to have each nightmare battle unique to the situation and characters! And there are a couple who are shared by pairs of characters!
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codyfun12329~5Y
Nightmares could also have gimmicks that vary beyond the effective turns the players get. For example, everybody except for the character the arc battle focuses on could be numbed and only able to intervene using their mind, while the star is too freaked out to do anything but use their body.
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AdmiralLara49~5Y
"Mardek Honeyblood", really? I actually remember Mardek's last name in the original, and it was "El-Enkidu" which not only says a lot (that his family is defined by Enki) but also has a reference to the character's element, which in part defines their personality. "Honeyblood" just sounds strange honestly... and the others just sound like Pokemon... ("Oh cool, I just caught a Nympheather! And a Charhearth!")
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Tobias 1115~5Y
I suspect that had you grown up with the character Mardek Honeyblood and I was suggesting the name Mardek El-Enkidu for a remake, you'd be saying that the latter is ugly and meaningless while the former was more charming.
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AdmiralLara49~5Y
I'm a bit frustrated that you just dismissed my criticism like that - is everyone who dislikes an aspect of your plan for the new game a nostalgic moron? Because that's how you seem to treat people... everyone who has a positive opinion gets your "seal of approval" on the website, anyone who sincerely criticises something without a string of caveats behind it ("Oh, that's just my opinion tho, I'm not one of those MARDEK fanboys, do whatever u want!!!") gets dismissed. I think you said before that you realize that people tend not to give you criticism out of not wanting to hurt your feelings... is that the way you want it to be? I thought it wasn't...

If you want to make your names deliberately silly, than that's your decision, I guess. I don't think Honeyblood has inherently more meaning than "El-Enkidu" as JohnnyBoi explained. There's still something to be said for having names that one can actually take seriously.

I'll leave you with the words of JohnnyBoi when he asked: Why is "Mardek Honeyblood" an improvement?
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Tobias 1115~5Y
I didn't mean to dismiss you and I didn't call you a moron; that's your interpretation, not my intention. I'm interested in the psychology of people's opinions though and what I respond like tends to come from that mental place. Familiarity has a huge effect on whether we like something or not - there's tons of psychology research about that - and I do suspect that people would feel differently if the new ideas and the originals were flipped.

I'm not sure what you expect, though. "You don't like them? Sure, I'll change them then!" I've put thought into them and I know the story as a whole, so I'm not going to discard them just because someone dislikes them because they're different to the familiar and original.

I'm not resistant to critique or completely set in my ways about everything, but I also can't bend to everyone's opinions just because they present them. That's just not reasonable. Everything's so subjective.

I'll explain a bit why I chose this new name though. I should have done that before, but I tried to reply to a bunch of comments at once. Or maybe I should have explained in the post, though I expected curious speculation about the meanings rather than resistance to the new names.

Essentially, Mardek is meant as a lighthearted, nice character, who's neither aggressive to others nor emotionally tortured internally. He's associated with the colour gold. A big part of the story is the possession of his body by another entity. "Honeyblood", for me at least, suggests something golden, sweet (someone aggressive or passionate might have 'fire running through their veins', filling their being; he has golden sweetness running through his), quite down to earth (honey is very 'ordinary') and somewhat (but not clownishly) silly rather than, say, magical or spiritual (e.g. "Skywalker"; or does that sound like a Pokemon to you too?). But it also paints the picture that's a bit 'off' on a visceral level; having literal honey in your veins wouldn't be good for you! So it's got more layers of meaning than just his father's name and his element.

Perhaps it feels wrong to you if you perceived the original Mardek character differently, though? Or maybe you dislike silliness as a concept, but then I wonder why you'd like MARDEK since it was full of it!

As for Charhearth, a hearth is a solid construction that contains a chaotic fire within it, presenting a cosy flame that gives feelings of safety and warmth to others in the process. Being charred would suggest the fire within is doing damage to it, and that its true state is hidden beneath that damage.

Fathom brings to mind watery depths, but also trying to come to an understanding after deep thought.

Here's another way of looking at it: You could essentially swap around a lot of the surnames in the original without losing anything meaningful (if you also swapped the names of their parents). Mardek Fathom and Emeela Honeyblood wouldn't work at all, though; they'd be like "damp fire" or "adorable autopsy".

I love names that are like seeds that grow into a huge tree of branching connotations.
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JohnnyBoi45~5Y
Thank you for explaining some of your creative process in these names! This alone makes even someone as attached to the old names as me see what you're going for.
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Tobias 1115~5Y
Oh, I just replied to your other comment, but you'd already seen this!
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AdmiralLara49~5Y
Dude, of course I don't expect you to change them straight away. You really have to stop being condescending like that. But am I not allowed to express a negative opinion? Again, if you're so dismissive of any criticism (and you can justify dismissing it psychologically all you want, but that won't change how people see it), why ask for feedback at all? Should I have been more like "Oh, those names are sooooo great, about as subtle as a brick, but I love them anyway haha". May I suggest "Mardek Toonice" and "Emeela Thinksalot"? Those may be a bit less sophisticated, but you'd have the same meaning and, let's face it, they're no more trite than "Godsbod" and "Godsmind"!
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Maniafig222~5Y
I like the idea of the nightmares, a part of Taming Dreams that I liked was that the boss battles were manifestations of the characters' mental states at the time, this sounds like an evolved concept of that.

Looking forward to hearing more!
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Astreon152~5Y
Ok so I'm aware this is a ridiculously specific comment with regard to the amazing sum up of what's going on behind the scenes you provided us with, but i'm way too tired to try and think about how promising all of this is.

Shouldn't Bold's name actually be written in bold?

That's it for me,

Keep creating !
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Astreon152~5Y
Renaming everything for the sake of the wordplay would be a bit extreme, whereas as using a silly wordplay with something already existing seems balanced ?

They are named bold, they are bold, they show it off in letteraly everything they say: even the way they express themselves is bold.

I wouldn't mind seeing other writing styles being altered to match a characters's psyche or mood. Even in comics, when people talk the bubble is linked to them by an arrow, wheras when they dream it's through little clouds.

And as you subtly hint towards it: yes, that totally could also be a way of expressing an accent, or a manner of speach, since i highly doubt Tobias is gonna voice act the whole thing.

It's just like how i suggested that in chapter 1, the kids could shout the name of their attacks in caps, because that's how i picture chuuni kids would act their flashy pretend-to-be-hero moves.
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swatllama15~5Y
These seem like good changes - expanding on Elwyen early instead of having her seemingly just be a sidepiece and suddenly become a party member in the next chapter is smart, and something you obviously couldn't have done in MARDEK with its' planning process. The symbolism in monsters is also a nice touch that I hope players pick up on! And if there's even more music for monster battles, even better.

I'm struggling to understand the value of mottos for the characters though. We know what Deugan and Elywen wanted through the choices they made, their (p-)dialogue (letting us interact with them, and giving incentive to play with them to unlock more) and observe their thoughts in detail through dreamstones. Kind of the "show us, don't tell us" execution. Like, players will analyze the characters, and our perception of characters is going to change as we see more of them, so I feel like having a specific phrasing for them could lock in people's perceptions instead of letting them be fluid and change.
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Tobias 1115~5Y
The mottos are largely to help me with the design process, honestly. It's a valuable creative challenge coming up with them, because I have to think about what makes the character tick, what they're hoping for, which gives me a more detailed picture in my mind and should ideally make motivations and dialogue for them more consistent overall, rather than characters being interchangeable with their actions driven by an impersonal plot. Having them as a base also makes composing the characters' musical themes way easier, plus it has a nice feeling of enhanced meaning, tying things together, though I'd say that's a deep-down thing most players wouldn't notice. It certainly wouldn't be pushed in their faces, and many mottos might only ever be seen in the in-game Enyclopaedia (though others might occasionally come up in dialogue).
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swatllama15~5Y
That's very reassuring to see, and I think the leitmotifs will end up being important in how we feel about characters and giving musical clues that something could pertain to them and such! So, very nice!
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JohnnyBoi45~5Y
There's some really interesting stuff to unpack here!
First off, the concept you laid out for Elwyen's quest is definitely interesting - the idea of our party members creating miasmal monsters from their own emotions opens a lot of possibilities. The new map looks really exciting visually as well.

But what I really want to talk about is this idea of making everything "meaningful," and the consequences it has. I've seen this general concept thrown around a number of times over several posts - you tend to dismiss parts of the original Mardek because they didn't "mean" anything. I don't think you're giving your past self enough credit. Yes, Belfan, Hadris, Fengue, etc. don't mean anything in the sense of the corresponding to words in the English language, but they establish a lexicon of this universe and create a semi-consistent "sound." For an example, I'd like to bring up Morrowind again. Here's a selection of place names: Balmora, Tel Mora, Ald'ruhn, Bal Fell, Dagon Fel, Ald Velothi, Tel Vos. Without even knowing any of these places you already get a sense that they belong together in the same world. Though many of these do mean something in the game's dunmer language, even if you never learned those translations you would get an understanding of the world's naming conventions in a way that feels both unique and true to life.

The same goes, if not even more so, for character names: Mardek's original last name is Innanu El-Enkidu. This is not a meaningless name by any means: it references the Epic of Gilgamesh (Enkidu being Gilgamesh's companion, referencing Mardek's "companion" role that he takes to Deugan in regard to leadership) and the Sumerian goddess Inanna, who loses all her worldly possessions on a journey to the underworld (possibly foreshadowing Mardek's future path with Rohoph?). This name has multiple layers of reference while sounding more or less consistent with the established lexicon of Belfan. In universe, this name also establishes the conventions of a prefix relating to element and being named after one's father, which are confirmed by Deugan's surname: Eh-Deredu. I'm sure you know this, because I can't imagine you did it by accident, but at the same time I'm not sure because you certainly aren't mentioning it here.

Of course, the funny part is that you might have just made it up, with no intention to reference anything or have a hidden meaning, and everything I just said is complete nonsense. But that actually doesn't matter, because the point is that the audience is left to discern the meaning for themselves, whether it's "correct" or not. This brings me to what I feel is an actual problem with the changes you've made: in your efforts to imbue everything with "meaning," you've made it so heavy-handed that it actually diminishes the effect. When you have a game named "Divine Dreams," with a continent named "Numina," and landmasses named "Godsmind" and "Godsbod," it isn't consistent, it's just trite. You mention in reference to character's last names that "they're made of common words too so they're easy to understand and remember" and I find that symptomatic of the larger problems that seem to be appearing in this conceptualization of a reboot. You have to put some trust in your audience to grasp subtlety, or you end up force-feeding people "meaning" when you should be letting them come to these conclusions themselves.

Finally, in addition to this, I find that all this renaming of things begs one big question: why? Why is "Gemsand" an improvement on "Goznor?" Why is "Mardek Honeyblood" an improvement? It seems to me that you don't like the old names for whatever reason, but you haven't stopped to consider if the new ones are actually better. Why throw away everything your original fanbase recognizes? It wouldn't cause the game to only reach a limited audience as you've claimed in previous comments, but it would help get that original fanbase back on board, and that's just good business practice. I love this game, and I want it to be a success, so I'm not trying to tear down your creation. It's just disheartening to watch someone as creative as you turn away so strongly from what you've already built, especially when what you've already built is so good.
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Tama_Yoshi82~5Y
I agree that making things too plain, or imbuing everything with "obvious meaning" can be a problem. I like characters that don't know what they want, I like loftcratian horror-style stories where the feeling is more important than any explicit meaning. I think "trite" is a good word to describe a clumsy writing that attempts to give more symbolism to something than it deserves, dismissing a certain dimension of something complicated in favor of silly archetypes.

That said, you only really talked about names here. Did MARDEK's names have a recognizable world-building sound to them? Yes. Did I perceive them as meaning something profound? Not really. Did they have a D&D feeling of the style Tobias is probably trying to grow out of? I'd assume this is what's happening here. Why not change the names as a part of an aesthetic divide? They're only *names* after all... I find them charmingly different, now; they're kind of their own thing now, instead of being an odd mesh of syllables.
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JohnnyBoi45~5Y
I suppose the names are charmingly different, in a way. Some of them I actually quite like - "Cloud-Clad Castle" is more interesting than "Castle Goznor," for example. But unfortunately for the rest we may just be in a stalemate of opinions - I say "why" and you say "why not?" I certainly have opinions on "why not": some of the new names just sound less appealing, I definitely find that using so many combined English words for every place sounds juvenile, and choosing Latin as the "oh it means this but it's not in English" is probably the lowest hanging fruit, because so much of English is basically just latin roots. But again, I cannot back these up with any objective truth. Do I find them a step back the original names? Yes. Do I have reasons why? Yes. I would love to know your reasons as to why you find the new names better... I'm not beyond being convinced that I'm wrong.

But overall, as I said, the names are just symptoms of the larger issue. Some don't really make a difference like "Gemsand" or "Wyrmourn," though in my opinion they are simply sonically inferior to their predecessors. Some, like "Lake Lacrimosa" or "Heropolis" feel much more awkward and generic. But where this matters is really in the story itself. Are we going to be experiencing contrived, "profound" dialogue the whole time? I watched some of the Taming Dreams longplay, and the expository dialogue, while certainly more serious and meaningful in nature than whatever Mardek's exposition was, is just awkward. The phrase "dreams drive us to divine discoveries" is repeated no fewer than 4 times just in the first conversation, and then again before the boss - I know it's Deugan playing as Enki and that's his "motto," but it feels so stilted. Mardek's P-dialogues somehow captured a very good combination of realism and absurdism, but I feel that in the newer installments movement away from the absurd, they have somehow made it less realistic as well.
3
Tama_Yoshi82~5Y
It gets abstract debating names and realism. I'm an amateur writer myself, so I've some mind on this, but mostly it's mixed feelings. I haven't played Taming Dreams or watched much of it, but I agree with your sentiment on flowery dialogue. I like dialogue where people talk "normally", with occasional exceptions to emphasize certain oddities.

I have divine characters that talk with bourgeois vocabulary, and a Wizard that inexplicably always talks in rhymes, even when having mundane conversations:

"Two things," he said. "A compass ring, and shoes with wings." [...] "The Compass Ring will point you to Somar, the Pegasus Shoes will carry you in a blur."

It's strange, and I just HAD to have the other characters acknowledge how strange it was (both characters here are divine beings):

She chuckled. "Y'know, I've been eavesdropping on your quarrel, and I have to ask, do you *have* to rhyme *everything* you say? Were you cursed to sound imperious? So you'd be ostracized?"
"A word that flies dies. Forced reprises make the words wise."
"Orange!" she shouted, "Orange, orange!"
"Trying to destabilize me, is it on what you hinge? At this rate, you'll barely mobilize me."
She burst out laughing. "How do you do that!?"

And I kinda like that, although it's definitely on the fringes. My point? Uh... I guess I agree, maybe, it depends. Full realism is almost always bad or impossible, and voluntary excess in irrealism can be interesting.

Most things tend to have roots that are transformed variations of a word, or words, in some other language. Latin and English are just the most obvious ones when we think of this, and by being more obvious, they usually have a more "fairy-tale" or "new age" feeling, I find. I also know the sound "k" is usually the most memorable sound, but it also feels more gritty, like "r". "Orc", "Mordor" I actually found it more difficult than expected to find examples, oh well. Maybe the resistance to terms like "Divine Dreams" is that it just evokes such a radically different area of ideas than the typical D&D concepts (war and blood, black magic and barbarity). Divine Dream is spelled with D and D as well... but it evokes to me more things like souls, fate, predestination, emotions, inner energy. It's very different, and the appeal will be different too, but because it's artistically aligned with what Divine Dreams is, I think it's fine.

It's difficult to find objectivity in art, but I think consistency is at least one where we can agree with (unless the inconsistency is for effect, in which case... waaaaaaaahhhh).
4
JohnnyBoi45~5Y
I love those dialogue examples! They're really quite fun. I agree that "full realism" is often ill-fated. You bring up an interesting point about the phonetics of "Divine Dreams." I personally have no problem with that as a title, but it does make me think a bit about other names like Gemsand, Honeyblood, Fathom, etc, which also use those softer consonants. In my latest reply to Tobias I recognized that there's truly no issue with any of these names from a "realism" standpoint, so any remaining issue I have with them is basically "I don't like how this sounds," which is subjective. At this point, the only thing left to say is that I hope Tobias recognizes how some of these names might come off, not just to nostalgia-riddled players of the original Mardek, but new fans who might see Anvilicious [LINK] names such as "Heropolis" or "Godsbod" and judge the game poorly based on that. It seems small, but these surface-level details can make a big difference to an outsider.
2
Tama_Yoshi82~5Y
I don't know about you, but when I read Heropolis, I immediately thought about the Mighty Heroes, which were absolutely on the nose. "Gosh, they were so arrogant, they named a city after themselves." If that were the case, wouldn't it be pretty appropriate? :P
2
Tobias 1115~5Y
Apparently comments get marked as read if anyone replies to them, so this didn't appear in my inbox before.

You might want to have a look at the comments by AdmiralLara and my responses, since I addressed some things there.

I can't remember, but were you the one who expressed criticisms about Taming Dreams' dialogue when I posted the longplay a while back? The complaint about Enki's wearying motto seems familiar. I actually agree with you there, and I've been trying to make the point that I'm aiming to try to capture the tone of MARDEK rather than the tone of Taming Dreams with this. That is, I'm aiming for a blend of silliness with fantasy allure rather than pretentious spiritual themes. Or at least no more pretentious than something like, say, Final Fantasy. Probably.

I saw a documentary about Tolkein way back in school, and something in it stuck with me. He said that while he loved coming up with his own languages - he was a linguist, first and foremost, and he made his world so his languages had somewhere to exist - he used them sensibly and sparingly. There might be a forest called Lórien in the Elven Lands, but the down-to-earth Hobbits wouldn't use names like that for their local landmarks. They'd use names like "Old Forest" or "Weather Hills" or "The Shire" instead. Names like that make it clear that somebody named them once, for the practical purpose of meaningfully referring to a local location for communication with others.

A lot of fantasy names just use airy-sounding Fantasy Names that evoke a certain feeling, but who would have actually called them that, and why? "Alas, we must venture from Dha'ragasta'va'ria to Allawendrest post-haste, my fellows!" If they're words from a local language, sure, that works great! But most people don't put the effort in that Tolkien did, to make them actually meaningfully in a fantastical language; they just make up sounds that 'seem like' they could be in a fantasy language, but lack any meaningful history for why people would ever use those words for their intended meanings. "Lórien", if you were speaking Elven, would just mean "Dream Land". It's not as if the elves were coming up with a fancy word; in their language, the name is relatively mundane.

Tamriel names are a good example actually. The Morrowind place names use the language of the locals, and I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the creators had at least some vague idea of how that language sounds, if not to the extent Tolkien planned his. But in the provinces where "English" is the native tongue, instead you get names like "The Orange Road", "The Great Forest", "Blackwood", "Whiterun", "Solitude", "Imperial City", etc.

In the world I'm making, English is their language since it's the only one I know. Historical figures would have named each of the places based on the connotations they felt it had, in the language that they used. So we get names like Slumberwood, Dreamcave, Lifewood, etc.

I'd say that Gemsand is better than Goznor for a couple of reasons. One is that I can imagine a historical figure saying "I'd love to live in that place where the sand sparkles like gemstones", which would eventually be compressed into just "Gemsand", but the only real reason for it to be called Goznor would be if it were named after someone called Mr Goznor or whatever, but even then what would that name have originally meant, and in what language? Every name has some etymological origin. Another is simply because I think it evokes a beautiful mental image, of glittering, precious sand in a likely beach-based place, while Goznor could be - and was! - applied to settlements with drastically different aesthetics and feelings. In the Neverwinter Nights module, it was a built-up city, then it became a cosy little village, and the name didn't lose any meaning or effect when used for both because it never had that to lose in the first place. The name Gemsand wouldn't have made sense for either of those.

Regarding the character names, the original ones describe what they are, but the new ones describe who they are. The former are more like "Cuthbert the Knight" or "Princess Tanya", while the latter are more like "Cuthbert the Mad" or "Wise Tanya". Again, see my other comment for why I chose 'Honeyblood' specifically.

I love language, especially its potential to create complex imagery. I used the metaphor of a seed growing a tree of connotations in one of my other comments. I like playing around with layered meanings so much that I struggle to understand the resistance to it. To me, it's absolutely beautiful and enthralling.

If you think that 'Aeropolis' is an amazing name but 'Heropolis' is trite and juvenile or whatever, I'd invite you to have a look at your own mind to see why that might be. I suspect familiarity is an enormous part of it.
3
JohnnyBoi45~5Y
Thanks for taking the time to reply - I thought perhaps I'd crossed a line with that last comment (which might still be the case). I was not actually the one who had previously commented about Enki's motto. I'm glad to hear about this direction you're going for dialogue-wise. On some reflection from reading your comment and mine, I realize I've said some things that I no longer agree with, so I'd like to clear those up.

I actually completely agree with what you're saying about your method for naming places - practical meaning. I do want to note that I made no mention of places like Slumberwood, Dreamcave, Lifewood, in a negative context, but since those are all more or less from the original series, I'll add a few more from your map: Wyrmourn, Sternham, Rift, Cloud-Clad Castle. All these places sound like something someone "named" for a practical purpose, or in the case of the castle, maybe named as such by a royal trying to make his or her castle seem special. Now, due to your explanation of Gemsand, I understand it's origin and don't mind it nearly as much. These would be good tidbits for the encyclopedia section, I'd love to know why Wyrmourn, Sternham etc. are named as such.

Which I guess brings me to the places which I probably had the biggest complaints about: Lake Lacrimosa, Heropolis, and the continent/landmass names. I think this is where my initial complaint about "meaning" came from. These complaints don't come from a lack of explanation like Gemsand, as you have explained why they are named that. The thing with Lake Lacrimosa is that you've stated this world uses English (or seem to have Germanic/Old English roots like Sternham or Wyrmourn), so a sudden Latin word in the mix feels way off. "Lake Lachrymose" might be more consistent with the existing terminology, or even something as mundane as "Lake Tear."

For Heropolis... I will say I never thought or said Aeropolis was an amazing name, but it did make "sense." It's a city around the air temple - boom, Aeropolis. I can totally see someone calling it that, obvious as it is, so it checks off the "practical naming" naming box. Upon further consideration, Heropolis does this as well! It's the capital city of the courageous "Bold" race, so I imagine they may have named their city that completely on purpose. That said, I now put it on a similar ground to Aeropolis, as a sensible name in-context, but a bit cringeworthy just as a word - which is not necessarily a problem, because that can totally work in-universe! Only other thing about Heropolis is it has a random Greek root which I'll just mention for consistency with my complaint about Lacrimosa, and that it shares a name with the mobile game "Legends of Heropolis," which is about, you guessed it, heroes. I'll keep it short for the continent names - Numina has the same language inconsistency which come off strangely, and some other comments have mentioned that Godsmind and Godsbod are a bit on-the-nose, which is a sentiment I agree with. But again, could easily be justified in-universe, as long as you're doing it on purpose. The map looking like a head and body (although I think it looks like a head and a uterus and ovaries) is really quite brilliant, and someone could theoretically go "aha! A head and body, the size of a god! Let me name them as such!" Not sure how they would get the birds-eye view to find out, but hey, it's fantasy.

As for character names, at this point I've read the words "Mardek Honeyblood" enough times that I might just be getting Stockholm syndrome about it. Your explanation certainly helped, I least get *why* you want to call him that. You may have noticed I'm not mentioning the other names - I'm not sure if it's because I think they're better (Elwyen's is basically the same as her old one anyway) or I just care less because they aren't Mardek. I still think it's kind of a weird name for phonetic reasons alone, but I'll just get over it. Or not. Who knows.

I guess to sum up, I have reconsidered and your names are totally fine because names aren't all "cool" in real life anyway, so there's no reason they should all be "cool" in this world. After all, there's a town called "Burnt Corn, Alabama" and people name their kids plenty of things worse than "Honeyblood." While I know the existing world of Mardek probably far too well, you know this world you're creating better than I do, and I should probably trust you a bit more to make the right choices in regards to it.
2
MontyCallay101~5Y
Wow, you've really built on your ideas in the last weeks! The idea of the boss battles being based on characters' nightmares is really cool, I think. That's a psychological theme that's interesting without seeming alienating, and it's certainly more sophisticated than the old MARDEK ever was.

I'm really enjoying whatver you've shared of the music as well, even when it's sung by a robot voice :) but that makes me curious, how would you find out about the lyrics to the leitmotifs (which clearly have so much meaning) without being awkwardly exposited to by the respective characters? Especially if it's something you're meant to figure out as you go on... honestly, with something like that there seems to be so much potential to actually hire someone to perform those in the game, so maybe that should be one of your Kickstarter stretch goals?

I'm also surprised by how dedicated you are to developing all that symbolism and imagery to put into the world! "Lake Lacrimosa" certainly is a good name, I have to say! Though I wonder if it won't all seem a bit on the nose at some point, with "Godsmind" and "Godsbod" - so that might be an interesting line to walk between having effective world-building and having such deeply integrated themes. But at the moment, it all seems very exciting, if somewhat jarring considering the contrast to the more generic world that I remember from the old games. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, so I'm really curious where your own approach will go!
1
Tobias 1115~5Y
I thought about having someone sing the lyrics to the music, but the reality of it (human contact and professional contracts, choosing the right people and rejecting the wrong ones, etc) all seems too much for me in my current state of mind and life! So instead I'm seeing the mottos as more of a concept to guide development. It helps to write appealing melodies if I have words first, and the creative challenge of compressing a character into a snippet like that helps me ensure their role in the story is clear and consistent. Most of them might never be seen by the player outside the in-game Encyclopaedia.

A few of these comments have taken issue with the meaningfulness of the names of things, which is surprising to me. Isn't it a JRPG convention to name a whole bunch of things after various mythological or religious concepts? I suspect there's resistance largely because it's jarring compared to what's familiar, as you mentioned. Personally having layered meanings in language is one of my favourite things.
1
MontyCallay101~5Y
I don't think it's about the meaningfulness of the names per se, that's not something which I, at least, would consider a detriment – I think that it is in part due to not being used to the names yet (which will come over time, I still remember when I was confused when you renamed Dolour to Duhrge – funny how people get attached to things) as well as the fact that the names themselves are so whimsical and obvious (I keep wondering if I would prefer "Corpus Dei" or something like that to "Godsbod", even though the meaning is the same – Latin makes it feel more "churchy", and it feels less on the nose).

The major point with this, as I said, is probably to find a point where the world seems meaningful without feeling *oversaturated* (where characters artificially elaborate for ages about their deepest feelings and motivations, every tree represents one of Rohoph's body hairs, and your journey is through some deity's gastrointestinal tract). I personally find both the world being shaped like a person and the continents and locations being placed and named as such a bit too obvious, which isn't to say that I don't like the meaningfulness, but rather that it feels… allegorical and overly symbolic. I'd prefer it if the meaning was a bit more… subtextual, rather than overwhelmed with symbolism from the start, which would certainly make the game more approachable in general. But maybe I'm being too critical for something that's really only first impressions. I do like your approach with this in general, and the actual meaning you're trying to convey is certainly unique and interesting!
4
NicoBros5~5Y
WHOA!
YES.
MY CHILDHOOD IS GETTING MEANING ONCE AGAIN!
... Anyway, despite the fanboying.

Well, um. I'm really liking how you're getting so far with it! Also, it turns out to be a pretty cool idea to give meaning to everything in the game now, just like the Taming Dreams.

... I was kinda busy at those days so I wasn't following properly the site, yet I've got a few info here and there, at the things I saw here.

Basically, it's a mix between Mardek's history and Taming Dreams, but it's 3D right? I know that Taming Dreams is basically MARDEK Reboot, but I mean, the "flow" of TD. The battle system, the things related to feelings, mind and etc. I already finished TD and I liked a lot, yet for a reboot, it feels so different compared to the original MARDEK trilogy - in a good way -, so it will be really interesting see this kind of thing again in that new game you're making right there, and hey, it's basically chapter 4 right?

Since it has those new things and changes compared to the previous 3 games, how do you will connect the history with that new one?
I mean, this new chapter will going to reshape everything that has happened in the plot so far or it will simply continue from where it went finished?

Back to the trilogy, I finished MARDEK 1 and 2 (talking about the second one, I made a speedrun of it and I finished in less than 5 hours, basically % any) and the third one I still need to finish.

Anyway bro, take your time! I'm now 17 yo, and it's been almost 10 years since I've played it, so yeah I can wait more, hehe.
... I'm feeling old now, haha

PS: Since you're doing penis-related word puns (I clicked at the link), we need an enemy called "Krull the Warrior King" or something like that (yeah, that's a penis expression).
1
Tobias 1115~5Y
Hello! I'm glad you're excited!

I'm trying to take the best aspects of both MARDEK and Taming Dreams for this. The story's a revision of what happened in MARDEK, just as Taming Dreams' was; it's not a continuation. The bit mentioned in this post comparing the "Lake Qur" section from the original and the "Lake Lacrimosa" revision of the same section gives a good idea of what I'm planning.

Gameplay-wise, it'll have a combat system more like MARDEK than Taming Dreams, focused on basic battles rather than obscure psychological stuff.
1
NicoBros5~5Y
Oooh, that explain everything!
I see, it's a revision then. That's great, because if even there's people who never played the trilogy before will have a bit of the taste of the plot at this "new chapter 4".

Thanks for answering!
2
Verdusk21~5Y
Having these Nightmares I feel show an uncommon degree of respect to the characters, designing a unique creature to represent the bane of each of their existences,amd dedicating a scene for the very personal confrontation.

My own Nightmare would probably look like one of those lump of faces monsters, trying to absorb you into them, as they mutter the same like an echo chamber. Or worse, make them smile and be loud too.
1
Astreon152~5Y
Ok so i read most of the posts on this apparently controversial issue of names.

Couldn't you satisfy both parties with a "translation" trick ?

The names could appear in something that sounds more fantasy-like (to everyone who doesn't understand elven Lorien is mystical), but their description, or the way some people call it IN ENGLISH could include their translation (just like non elven would translate Lorien as Dreamland).

Take Goznor: you could keep it as is, and somehow explain that it means "Gemsand" in the language of the first people who erected this town, but whose civilization has declined/be assimilated or such. So it's still Goznor because of its history, and it's named so in ancient records, but nowadays people just nickname it Gemsand (for the earth to earth reasons you described).

How many people actually call the town they live in by its full name ?

Also, putting meaning behind every single little thing kills imagination for the player: true, most my say "aha, i see what he did there", but they will hardly ever be room for imagination. Everyone will have the same game experience, and not live the adventure on a subjective level.
Cause you know, Mardek Honeyblood only means what you make it mean, whereas a random surname means whatever the player puts behind it.

If you give your world a sense, it only has one. If you don't give it one, than anyone can give it theirs.

So of course, it's YOUR game, and your universe, and i understand that you like to plan things ahead and give it a comprehensive consistency. That sure makes us go "wow, that"s some crazy amount of work and planning ahead". But not 100% down to the smallest detail has to be meaningfull. Sometimes in life, you can't make heads or tail of some stuff: is that a such a bad thing ? And if you really want to make anything meaningful, it doesn't all have to be in the same level: you could include explanations in random non compulsive places, like clicking on a bookshelf in a kingdom's official library would help you understand the why's behind stuff, but you don't have to read it to finish the game.
Or make it rewarding: unraveling the mysteries behind a name could help you understand that the "secret Malkraizon treasury" is in fact some underground cave in your home town that's been banned for centuries for being haunted. How many times do people live near locations they have no clue about ?

Anyhow, you'll do whatever you want in the end, but be aware that whenever you start getting the feeling "now i know where this is headed and what I want to do", you tend to just impose it on others not-so-subtly and dismiss any opposition just because they don't fit. You've done it in the past, and i'm not saying it's wrong in itself, just that it will upset many of your followers who will be under the impression you think shit about them (doesn't matter if it's true or not it's an impression, subjective per se). You said you wanted to recreate a real fan base: that's not really consistent with it, unless your planning to select its happy few members based on who only shows exuberant enthusiasm whenever you share what you've been working on.

Tl; Dr: not following suggestions or advices is fine, but be carefull about HOW you dismiss people's opinion.
3
Maniafig222~5Y
Are the continents shaped like a head and body on purpose? That would explain the names Godsmind and Godsbod.

There's been some debate in the comments regarding the names, it seems. Personally I'm fine with most name changes. I remember when you first planned out Taming Dreams and Gemsand was still Goznor. I didn't like the change at first, but now I'm used to it I rather like it, actually.

I like the names Lake Lacrimosa and Heropolis myself, the former has some nice alliteration and makes sense considering the morose people who inhabit it. The latter is a wordplay on Acropolis much like Aeropolis was. All things considered it's a good way to translate it from "Air Element" place to "Bold Sentiment" place.

The only location names I think need more consideration are Godsbod and Godsmind. They don't roll off the tongue and sound weird. I'm sure you can think of something else that fits the same divinity and mind/body dichotomy without being quite so literal.

I do like the surnames. Honeyblood is very fitting, you can easily imagine Mardek wishing he had honey for blood, it fits his cloyingly sweet attitude while also having some dark undertones, it's still blood after all.

I can also imagine Mardek constantly mispronouncing Elwyen's name as "Nympheater".

The only one that stands out is Fathom because it feels like it doesn't fit in with the others. Just like Emeela herself, ha! I'm assuming this might just be a Bold/Meek thing then. This could actually be an interesting way to further distinguish the races, if they all have their own naming conventions.
2
Verdusk21~5Y
Reminds me that Mardek actually wished for some chocolate rainbow puppy thing in Taming Dreams.

Maybe he'll ask Elwyen how Nymphs taste like next.
0
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