Alora Fane

I feel that BoJack Horseman's a deeply powerful work of media because its themes resonate with some in my own life, though I've been unusually well this past week. Also I'm wondering about reviving my Patreon account, but there are uncertainties.

I just finished watching the final episode of BoJack Horseman, which moved me to tears. I've no idea what any reviewers or the hive mind thought about it - and I don't want to know - but for me it's had a really powerful impact on my life, more than most works of media, because it was so resonant at the time I found it. It deals with complicated 'toxic' relationships and personal demons in a surprisingly realistic way for a show whose protagonist is an anthropomorphic equine celebrity.

I was introduced to it by my 'best friend' at university, a girl who I had a close and unhealthy connection with in a very similar way to BoJack and Diane, with me as the more broken one and her as my cruelly appointed saviour. So hearing some of the stuff that character said made me wonder how much of it would match how she felt. I don't know, though; she cut me out a couple of years ago, so we can't exactly talk about it. I regularly think about trying to contact her again, just to close things and go our separate ways more amicably than before, or even just to show that I'm not consumed by that darkness anymore, but I know it's one-sided. I often wonder whether she ever feels guilty about any of it, like I do every day, but why does that matter, really? Would I want her to? That's not right...

My ex-girlfriend, too; I had just as unhealthy a relationship with her. She actually reached out to me after years of silence around the time of the whole brain cancer stuff, but it was when I was at my worst, constantly suicidal, so I probably just scared her off again with my insanity. I keep wondering whether to reach out to her again to apologise for that, but I keep hesitating.

Maybe it's best to just move on completely, let go of what few close bonds I've ever had since I know they're better off without me in their lives. It's why I've resolved to just stay single forever; I don't want to drag anyone else down.

This is what happens when people come from broken homes and struggle with severe mental issues. We hurt others without meaning to - without even knowing we are doing a lot of the time - because we just don't know any better, we're just running the faulty, poorly-coded program inside. It's not deliberate malice, a desire to hurt, but that's the result anyway. A lot of broken people still get into horrible relationships even though they're not suited for them - we can't help longing for connection - but I do think it's best to recognise that they're not for me, and to focus my attention on making things so then there's more of a chance of actually bringing pleasure into the world rather than getting others caught up in my pain.

BoJack was made by more talented and experienced creators than I am, so I'm not going to be making anything of equivalent quality any time soon. But it's so inspiring to me, seeing such dark themes explored through such a silly setting in such a profoundly genuine, moving way. I'd love for something I make to even have a fraction of that emotional impact. I've been thinking about these characters all week, and it hurts to remember that their stories have ended.

I think about this dark relationship stuff every day, more often than anything else really, but these days they're not exactly painful, torturous thoughts. I'm not feeling bad at the moment. It's like the dark of a calm night, looking over a cliff at the vibrant lights of a town below... I appreciate media like this for letting me wallow in that for a while. It's particularly potent knowing I'm not the only one who's experienced this species of darkness; seeing it portrayed in a complex, often sympathetic way rather than just completely condemned as if it's all just the sinner's purposeful fault, as if they had the choice to be better but just decided not to take it.

Anyway. I'll just keep trying to find my own path through life. I hope they're doing well on theirs.

(I wrote this over an hour ago, and I'm still tearing up just thinking about how there are a limited number of deep emotional connections we'll ever form in our lives, and saying goodbye to any of them forever is a profoundly sad thing... All things must end, but that's sad too! I don't know if I'll ever find any more.)

Apart from that, I've been having an unusually good week in terms of general mood, so that's something. It's left me little time to do anything other than focus on work though, so I've not had as much time as I'd like to do other stuff like reply to comments, make the CBT thing I talked about last time, or finally finish playing my current game, Yooka-Laylee! I'm at the point in that where I need to find 100 of the collectibles to presumably unlock the final boss, and I think I'm up to like 98 now? Though the others are proving more elusive. I should finish that soon, then I'm not sure what to start next, I've not given it any thought. My mind's been elsewhere.

Finally, something I've been wondering these past few days is whether it'd be a good idea to revive my Patreon account. I know I've talked about this uncertainly before, but the interest was rekindled when a person on Twitter mentioned that they were glad to be a Patreon supporter.

I can't imagine I'd get a huge amount of interest - or money - if I were to do that, but considering that I'm earning pretty much nothing at the moment, anything's better than that. And I think I've made it clear by this point that I'm fairly single-mindedly focusing on this one particular project until I can finish it, so I feel like I'm doing something more worth supporting even if it's a long way away from completion.

My main concern though is that I'm hoping to do a Kickstarter for Divine Dreams when a demo is ready, but I don't know whether people would be willing to support that while also supporting me on Patreon. Personally I don't like asking for anything, let alone support in two different places, but if patrons don't support the Kickstarter, then it seems like there'd be much less chance of it being successful.

I'm also concerned about being beholden to people who give me money, and letting them down in some way. A huge fear, that. I'd like to think that since I stuck with Sindrel Song, I can stick with this too, but who knows what random, unpredictable tragedies might get in the way of production. Hopefully there won't be any, but I just feel so uncomfortable about the thought of it.

I'm also not sure what people would want exactly if I were to go down this path and they decided to become patrons. One thought is that I could make the development posts - and/or even these personal posts - patron-only, but I don't know whether that'd mean they'd only get posted on Patreon, or whether I'd have them on this site but locked, only for certain accounts. Maybe I could do both. Beyond that, what would people actually even want? Or would the pleasure of supporting me be enough? I don't know what other well-supported Patreon users do.

I was also told a while back that if I do set up Patreon again, I should set it so that people pay only when I release something rather than every month, even though the whole reason I'd be attempting Patreon is because otherwise my income comes entirely in bursts of uncertain amounts when things are finished, with no regular salary at all. That's such an insecure way to live!

If you've got any thoughts about this, I'm curious to hear them. For now, it's just a thought rather than an intention; I don't know what I'll do.

11 COMMENTS

MontyCallay101~5Y

My impression of the crowdfunding process is that most people who support you on Kickstarter expect to get a copy of the finished product in return, as opposed to Patreon, where you mostly have reward tiers for ranks on Discord and early/exclusive access to certain content. So there is a real difference, and I don't think already having a Patreon would stop people from supporting you on Kickstarter, just like it wouldn't stop them from buying the game on Steam. The people who follow you on Patreon are actually the people that I would expect are most likely to support you on Kickstarter as well.

Coincidentally, Step 3 of "How to not fail at Kickstarter in 8 more steps" [[LINK] - you'll have to take the "s" out of "https" in the link]:

"3. Have a reward tier that gets people a digital download of the game.

As we all know, Kickstarter isn't a pre-order system: it's a platform for helping people fund creative projects that they otherwise couldn't afford to make. At least, that's the theory. In practice, however, you must offer people a copy of your game as one of the lower-level reward tiers if you want to succeed. Fail to do so, and you will be screwed.

This is so because the people that want your game to exist generally also want to play that game. For many (if not most) of those people, the prospect of eventually playing your game is their primary motivator for funding its development. By failing to offer the game as a reward tier, you strip your project of the biggest available carrot on the proverbial stick. Use the big carrot: offer a "get the game" reward tier."

It makes sense that you're worried about feeling beholden to backers though! That's understandable. On the other hand, if I wanted to support you with the expectation of getting "the MARDEK remake", I'd feel a lot better about backing you with 20$ or so on Kickstarter and waiting until the game is "done", no matter how long that may take, rather than giving you x amount of $ every month on Patreon and waiting to buy the game until it is released. Kickstarter would have advantages in terms of marketing and raising attention for the game in a way that Patreon simply wouldn't, in addition to being more accessible because people can "pre-order" MARDEK on Kickstarter and have a reasonably clear idea of what they're getting. Patreon would be more for people who would want to support you long-term and not expect anything all too significant in return.

So it would be a good idea in my opinion to do both! Even if running a Kickstarter may need more planning beforehand.

It's still tragic reading about your relationships - but I can understand why you came to the conclusions that you did. I really wish that someday you'll find something that works for you beyond complete isolation.

Coincidentally, Step 3 of "How to not fail at Kickstarter in 8 more steps" [http://indierpgs.com/2014/10/how-to-not-fail-at-kickstarter-in-8-more-steps/ - you'll have to take the "s" out of "https" in the link]:

"3.  Have a reward tier that gets people a digital download of the game.

As we all know, Kickstarter isnâ€™t a pre-order system: itâ€™s a platform for helping people fund creative projects that they otherwise couldnâ€™t afford to make. At least, thatâ€™s the theory. In practice, however, you must offer people a copy of your game as one of the lower-level reward tiers if you want to succeed. Fail to do so, and you will be screwed.

This is so because the people that want your game to exist generally also want to play that game. For many (if not most) of those people, the prospect of eventually playing your game is their primary motivator for funding its development. By failing to offer the game as a reward tier, you strip your project of the biggest available carrot on the proverbial stick. Use the big carrot: offer a â€œget the gameâ€ reward tier."

It makes sense that you're worried about feeling beholden to backers though! That's understandable. On the other hand, if I wanted to support you with the expectation of getting "the MARDEK remake", I'd feel a lot better about backing you with 20$ or so on Kickstarter and waiting until the game is "done", no matter how long that may take, rather than giving you x amount of $ every month on Patreon and waiting to buy the game until it is released. Kickstarter would have advantages in terms of marketing and raising attention for the game in a way that Patreon simply wouldn't, in addition to being more accessible because people can "pre-order" MARDEK on Kickstarter and have a reasonably clear idea of what they're getting. Patreon would be more for people who would want to support you long-term and not expect anything all too significant in return.

So it would be a good idea in my opinion to do both! Even if running a Kickstarter may need more planning beforehand.

It's still tragic reading about your relationships - but I can understand why you came to the conclusions that you did. I really wish that someday you'll find something that works for you beyond complete isolation.

Tobias 1115~5Y

I was definitely assuming that I'd be giving away copies to Kickstarter backers, and I've been wondering what that'd do to the game's stats and chances of being distributed by Steam's algorithms etc. I'm not sure what else I could give as backing rewards though, and I very much dislike the idea of having to make special things for those since all my time's already devoted to making the actual game.

I suppose it's just not exactly a secure place for me, knowing I'm doing all this work every day, but not knowing whether it'll even amount to anything other than perhaps a failed Kickstarter (what with my lacking promotional skills) or very mediocre sales like Sindrel Song. So getting a little bit of money more regularly would take the edge off a bit. I imagine few people would work for months on any job, driven by the hope that maybe they'd get paid for it eventually, if they're lucky! But then I shouldn't really expect people to support my own stupid decision to do this. Maybe.

I'm not sure whether to do both or not, but I'll keep thinking about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I suppose it's just not exactly a secure place for me, knowing I'm doing all this work every day, but not knowing whether it'll even amount to anything other than perhaps a failed Kickstarter (what with my lacking promotional skills) or very mediocre sales like Sindrel Song. So getting a little bit of money more regularly would take the edge off a bit. I imagine few people would work for months on any job, driven by the hope that /maybe/ they'd get paid for it eventually, if they're lucky! But then I shouldn't really expect people to support my own stupid decision to do this. Maybe.

I'm not sure whether to do both or not, but I'll keep thinking about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

MontyCallay101~5Y

I really get being worried about the Kickstarter (or the sales of your game) not working out and longing for some sort of more secure income. I'm not sure what you expect from just reviving the Patreon, but, as Mania said, Patreon support is mostly based on internalised incentive, and at this point I get the impression that the Alora Fane *community* (as in the people who follow you, through this website, closely enough to want to support you unconditionally) isn't really large enough for this to make a lot of sense right now.

What I was getting at earlier is that I think it would be more difficult to "market" a Patreon compared to a Taming Dreams Kickstarter, since a Kickstarter would make it more easy to catch a more broad interest outside of your current range - "MARDEK developer announces remake of renowned flash game, opens Kickstarter" sounds a lot more effective to me as a hook than "MARDEK developer still working on remake" with a Patreon attached to it. One is a way to get support (and build hype) for a specific project, the other for a strongly dedicated fanbase to support you long-term. As I see it, one leads to the other.

As for "failing" on Kickstarter, I don't exactly see the risk - even if you start off with a very low goal (perhaps 1000$ - other crowdfunding sites also offer "flexible funding" models where there is no goal at all) and you put some effort into marketing to the extent that at least 50 people support you for 20$ (probably in exchange for the game on Steam - higher tiers could include an artbook/soundtrack etc.), then you already have some level of security! In addition, people who have invested in the game this way would follow it interest and help build a community. I think running a Kickstarter and gauging interest in the project, even if it fails, is a superior alternative to just keeping working on it and releasing it to mediocre sales on Steam. You'd have far less to lose!

What I was getting at earlier is that I think it would be more difficult to "market" a Patreon compared to a Taming Dreams Kickstarter, since a Kickstarter would make it more easy to catch a more broad interest outside of your current range - "MARDEK developer announces remake of renowned flash game, opens Kickstarter" sounds a lot more effective to me as a hook than "MARDEK developer still working on remake" with a Patreon attached to it. One is a way to get support (and build hype) for a specific project, the other for a strongly dedicated fanbase to support you long-term. As I see it, one leads to the other.

As for "failing" on Kickstarter, I don't exactly see the risk - even if you start off with a very low goal (perhaps 1000$ - other crowdfunding sites also offer "flexible funding" models where there is no goal at all) and you put some effort into marketing to the extent that at least 50 people support you for 20$ (probably in exchange for the game on Steam - higher tiers could include an artbook/soundtrack etc.), then you already have some level of security! In addition, people who have invested in the game this way would follow it interest and help build a community.  I think running a Kickstarter and gauging interest in the project, even if it fails, is a superior alternative to just keeping working on it and releasing it to mediocre sales on Steam. You'd have far less to lose!

Tobias 1115~5Y

I suppose what I was wondering was whether to do a Kickstarter and run a Patreon at the same time. I agree that doing a whole promotional campaign to Kickstart the game is more likely to produce results than a passive Patreon, though even then I don't know how well I'll be able to manage that (and getting $1000 for what amounts to likely a year's work isn't exactly a level of security!)

I've made absolutely no efforts to raise awareness about this project so far, and I'm planning to do that once I have a demo. So that'd either be as part of a Kickstarter campaign, or perhaps if I had a Patreon it'd draw more people to that.

Tama_Yoshi82~5Y

I really loved the last season of Bojack, even if the last two episodes were loaded with meta-commentary from the writers trying to wrestle with the fact they would have made the show last longer if they could have. I really liked the loftcratian, optimistic nihilism episode flair of the last two episodes, too. The writers are pretty good at playing with "there's a solution for everything" tropes and twisting them into a dark realism that's somehow more comforting than the saccharine sitcomy stuff we've all seen too many times. It's kinda the philosophical premise of the show, that. Funny though, when thinking about nihilism, it's unusual to find much comforting out of it, but Bojack really did a good job with it.

That said, this year the best Netflix show for me is not Bojack S6, but Sex Education S2 O_o While Sex Education doesn't get as dark as Bojack, it's just so much more vibrant, and the characters are all so amazing...! I think Sex Education S2 may be the best thing I've seen on Netflix, although I wouldn't say the same of S1 (it kinda had a hard time finding its identity in the first couple episodes; it does start out like an ordinary campy high-school series). WOULD RECOMMEND.

That said, this year the best Netflix show for me is not Bojack S6, but Sex Education S2 O_o While Sex Education doesn't get as dark as Bojack, it's just so much more vibrant, and the characters are all so amazing...! I think Sex Education S2 may be the best thing I've seen on Netflix, although I wouldn't say the same of S1 (it kinda had a hard time finding its identity in the first couple episodes; it does start out like an ordinary campy high-school series). WOULD RECOMMEND.

Maniafig222~5Y

I've heard a lot of good things about BoJack Horseman, nothing but good things even! It sounds interesting, perhaps I should watch it some time too. Its creators (I think?) apparently made another show with a similarly animal-people cast called Tuca and Bertie, but it only got one season despite getting a positive audience reception.

I'm glad the week has been treating you well, that aside! That's good to hear!

I'd certainly recommend reviving your Patreon account! It's becoming more unusual for artists and content creators NOT to have a Patreon account rather than having one!

Looking at it, the creator for EBF5 has a Patreon whereas the Telepath Tactics guy went with the Kickstarter route. It seems either way can work. You can look at the EBF5 Patreon for some examples of rewards, such as special roles in a Discord server, in-game credits, access to source code and early access to betas and whatnot. You could give access to betas of some of your unreleased games that aren't worth uploading online, or something like AF:C if you don't plan on going public with it.

GitP of Order of the Stick also recently started a Patreon it seems, and that one doesn't even have any Patron rewards or exclusive Patron rewards except for a monthly Q&A with publicly posted answers.

Another common one is the ability for Patrons to vote on games for you to play and review on your shortlist.

I suppose it comes down to what you really want, funding for specifically your Divine Dreams game or Patreon for your large-scale continuous work on the Alora Faneverse which would also include games like Sindrel Song and whatnot.

I get the impression most people use Patreon because they want to support the creator as an internalized incentive, with the patron bonuses being more of an added external incentive.

Patreons that only pay out when content is released vs a monthly schedule really wouldn't work, at that point you should just be Kickstarting the games instead since they can take so long to make! "Pay per release" Patreons seem to work better for channels that put out content on a semi-regular basis so there's no droughts of income.

Maybe if you do make a Patreon and release AF:C you could even have Patrons suggest stuff that could be added, like new character subtypes. Of course everybody will vote to add Poshgoblins, which was my grand scheme all along!!

Speaking of AF:C, I played another old quest. This one is almost two hours long! I forgot how long these things could be!! [LINK]&

I'm glad the week has been treating you well, that aside! That's good to hear!

I'd certainly recommend reviving your Patreon account! It's becoming more unusual for artists and content creators NOT to have a Patreon account rather than having one!

Looking at it, the creator for EBF5 has a Patreon whereas the Telepath Tactics guy went with the Kickstarter route. It seems either way can work. You can look at the EBF5 Patreon for some examples of rewards, such as special roles in a Discord server, in-game credits, access to source code and early access to betas and whatnot. You could give access to betas of some of your unreleased games that aren't worth uploading online, or something like AF:C if you don't plan on going public with it.

GitP of Order of the Stick also recently started a Patreon it seems, and that one doesn't even have any Patron rewards or exclusive Patron rewards except for a monthly Q&A with publicly posted answers.

Another common one is the ability for Patrons to vote on games for you to play and review on your shortlist.

I suppose it comes down to what you really want, funding for specifically your Divine Dreams game or Patreon for your large-scale continuous work on the Alora Faneverse which would also include games like Sindrel Song and whatnot.

I get the impression most people use Patreon because they want to support the creator as an internalized incentive, with the patron bonuses being more of an added external incentive.

Patreons that only pay out when content is released vs a monthly schedule really wouldn't work, at that point you should just be Kickstarting the games instead since they can take so long to make! "Pay per release" Patreons seem to work better for channels that put out content on a semi-regular basis so there's no droughts of income.

Maybe if you do make a Patreon and release AF:C you could even have Patrons suggest stuff that could be added, like new character subtypes. Of course everybody will vote to add Poshgoblins, which was my grand scheme all along!!

Speaking of AF:C, I played another old quest. This one is almost two hours long! I forgot how long these things could be!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e-5mxef9Ko&

Tobias 1115~5Y

I'd never heard of Tuca & Bertie, but I just looked it up and I'll probably watch it! I assumed when you mentioned it that it was a pre-BoJack attempt that didn't land, but it's more recent, it was really well-received, and yet still it failed and was cancelled... Such a shame! Creative things' success is so little about their quality, it's all about algorithms and marketing, and that worries me for my own hopes of any kind of success.

Interesting that the EBF guy has a Patreon; do you have a link to that? And do you have any idea of how much he's earning from it? I did look at the GitP one since I still visit that site, and I don't think it says who much money the creator is getting each month anymore? It used to. Unless I'm missing something, which is very probable. Interesting that he (Rich Burlew) talks about struggling to cover server costs despite raising over a million on Kickstarter a while back!

I'd be interested in tying together Patreon and beta testing, since with Sindrel Song testing only a small number of the volunteers I chose ever gave any feedback. If there's some monetary commitment, either they'd be more likely to contribute, maybe, or at least it wouldn't be a complete loss for me if they didn't. Giving out source code seems weird and wrong to me - though maybe it's common, I wouldn't know - so I wouldn't want to do that!

I keep wondering about a discord, but at this point I don't have the time or mental energy to deal with something like that that's there all the time. It's hard enough finding the time to reply to the few comments I get here! I'm trying to find the best time in the day for it; I was trying to do it in the evenings, but I've been too tired then for the past while.

I'm still struggling to decide on what games to play next, though I also haven't exactly started on Celeste even though the results of that poll I started said I should!

It's useful though to hear that it's more common for creators to have a Patreon than not though. Thanks for that; it helps direct my decision in a certain direction... though I'm still not sure. Maybe I'll give it a bit more thought and write about it at the weekend. Even if I do start one, I know it won't earn much (I'll be very lucky to get $100 a month), but anything's better than the zero I'm earning at the moment.

Oh, and I thought the suggestion I limit it to when I release things rather than monthly was a bit silly at the time for the reasons you mentioned! I suppose the thinking behind that person suggesting it was that it's not fair to ask for money if people aren't immediately getting anything for it, but I'd hope that just the pleasure of being helpful isn't worthless? Maybe??

Interesting that the EBF guy has a Patreon; do you have a link to that? And do you have any idea of how much he's earning from it? I did look at the GitP one since I still visit that site, and I don't think it says who much money the creator is getting each month anymore? It used to. Unless I'm missing something, which is very probable. Interesting that he (Rich Burlew) talks about struggling to cover server costs despite raising over a million on Kickstarter a while back!

I'd be interested in tying together Patreon and beta testing, since with Sindrel Song testing only a small number of the volunteers I chose ever gave any feedback. If there's some monetary commitment, either they'd be more likely to contribute, maybe, or at least it wouldn't be a complete loss for me if they didn't. Giving out source code seems weird and wrong to me - though maybe it's common, I wouldn't know - so I wouldn't want to do that!

I keep wondering about a discord, but at this point I don't have the time or mental energy to deal with something like that that's there /all the time/. It's hard enough finding the time to reply to the few comments I get here! I'm trying to find the best time in the day for it; I was trying to do it in the evenings, but I've been too tired then for the past while.

I'm still struggling to decide on what games to play next, though I also haven't exactly started on Celeste even though the results of that poll I started said I should!

It's useful though to hear that it's more common for creators to have a Patreon than not though. Thanks for that; it helps direct my decision in a certain direction... though I'm still not sure. Maybe I'll give it a bit more thought and write about it at the weekend. Even if I do start one, I know it won't earn much (I'll be very lucky to get $100 a month), but anything's better than the zero I'm earning at the moment.

Oh, and I thought the suggestion I limit it to when I release things rather than monthly was a bit silly at the time for the reasons you mentioned! I suppose the thinking behind that person suggesting it was that it's not fair to ask for money if people aren't immediately getting anything for it, but I'd hope that just the pleasure of being helpful isn't worthless? Maybe??

Maniafig222~5Y

With Tuca&Bertie, a factor that might have played a role in is cancellation was disputes over the show staff wanting to unionize, or at least I've seen people tossing around articles talking about that. Maybe this is also why they had to finish and write an ending for BoJack Horseman this season rather than make more?

Here a link to the Patreon: [LINK]

The host of a Patreon can choose whether or not to show how much money they are making per month/project. Some choose to show it and others don't. I wouldn't know which strategy is better though!

The GitP kickstarter was a weird one, it made a lot, but it also was made to cover a lot of expenses! It also suffered hard from stretch goal inflation, meaning the creator is still working on those stretch goals on the side while also working on the main comic.

kalkra19~5Y

A lot of games are released in an incomplete beta form, and that's used as a platform to advertise for the developer's Patreon, and then the game gets updated over time, keeping people engaged. I don't know how well that would work with these types of games, though. Also, that system tends to have a lot more user feedback, of the "game is too hard, you stink" variety. I mean, even if people like the game overall, they probably won't say so each update, and instead focus on suggestions and criticism.

Tobias 1115~5Y

Would they give feedback in such a harsh way if they were paying patrons though?

I do like the idea of being able to show off what I've made and get feedback soon after I've made it, since that'd actually help me out and (hopefully) keep me motivated. But I suppose it would work best with games that aren't story-driven. So I still don't know what to do!

kalkra19~5Y

I don't really have anything to say, but I wanted to mention that I got an endorphin rush seeing that you responded to my post. Sweet, sweet validation.

I feel bad now, so I'll say something, which is that even if the game is story driven, I've played games where a character abruptly says something like "That's all the content for now" and you just wait for the next update and re-load your save or whatever. It does work, as long as you update regularly enough that people don't forget about it.