Alora Fane

I love my ideas for Divine Dreams, but making enough money from them is such a daunting prospect that maybe I should rethink what I'm trying to do.

Normally I'd write a post about my progress with this at the end of the week, but I feel quite... shaken, uncertain, about it all at the moment, or more specifically about ever making any money from it, so I want to write about it for the hope of catharsis if nothing else.

The task I gave myself this week was to finish revising the characters and story plans. Here's an idea I had for how to handle weapons and the music thing I talked about last weekend:

Dayvha's weapons would be a pair of resonars, which are slender crystal swords, rapier-like, which when rubbed against one another produce musical tones. He uses two, meaning that his basic attack is a double attack (which seems fun for the player), and he can play them like a fiddle (which is associated with the devil) to create music. You'd be able to equip two at once, separately, which I'd like as a player too.

Since the miasma is given form by subconscious emotion, music could be a good medium for this. It doesn't affect the miasma directly, sonically, but rather it's just a means by which conscious minds can make themselves feel particular emotions. Spellcasters, then, would largely or even exclusively be musicians. This means that 3 of the 9 main characters I'd previously planned to have instruments (two pictured here) would just be using those instruments to cast spells. It's kind of like a magic wand, but in that case it's mostly just "it's a conduit for magic because magic", whereas here I feel the music-swells-emotions thing is relatable with real experience.

I also like the term 'resonar', from 'resonate', which has meanings relating to both music and emotion.

I also wondered about the term 'spelody' or 'spellody' (spell + melody) for magic, and perhaps they could have a rhythmic input for their reactions, kind of like the normal physical reactions but with multiple points to hit (with the same button each time). Maybe the spell would actually have a hit/damage effect for every note; it seems viscerally appealing in a gameplay sense, and it'd mean I could use essentially the same mechanics for the dual hits of Dayvha's resonars.

I get lost in and enjoy planning like that. Coming up with this big world with deep lore, intriguing characters... I have a couple of design documents, one with around 200 pages of stream-of-consciousness notes, the other a more formal laying-out of ideas from those notes in a final plan for the series. My main task at the moment is to decide on the plot for that final document.

But as I mentioned previously, I feel shaken, by a bunch of factors I suppose. It's hard to concentrate, and I don't even know if this is what I should be doing.

MARDEK generated a few thousand dollars on Steam, but as grateful as I am of that, it's just not enough to pay the bills for any significant amount of time. I know it's an old port and everything, so it's quite impressive considering that, especially since I did no advertising, but still, it's so bleak. It'd be a very different situation if I'd got $100k for it or something, but obviously that's not been the case.

I'd been hoping that with Divine Dreams, there might be mounting interest in the chapters. Perhaps the first would get a fairly mediocre response, but in time I could build up to something great with the third. This is what happened with MARDEK.

However, someone commented on the previous post with a link to ∞ this article ∞, which talks about the unique challenges of promoting an episodic game. Most notably, it seems that the buzz really dies down after the first installment, even for huge games with enormous teams behind them.

I'm thankful that this person commented about this, since it's something I need to think about now rather than wasting months and facing it more harshly anyway. At least I'm at the point now where potential changes could be made.

I'd also talked about the money woes on Twitter, and someone seemed really offended by it because - in their eyes - it made me seem unappreciative of their enthusiasm when they bought MARDEK as soon as the option was available. I tweeted again about the possibly-taboo nature of being so open about my earnings - I share it for the same reason I share the rest of the journey, but I can understand the discomfort it might bring - and the hashtag #GameDevPaidMe was mentioned as a case where a lot of people in this line of work were being encouraged to be more open about their income. I thought it'd be a bunch of indies talking about how they've managed to scrape by, or not.

Instead what I saw were a lot of tweets by people talking about their professional roles in big, proper games dev teams with yearly salaries like 60k or 115k for being a 'Lead Programmer' or 'Contributing Artist' or whatever.

It made me feel really sick, knowing that this is the kind of money probably a whole lot of people fairly casually make... Some of you reading probably have salaries like that. It spurred lots of thoughts about how other people's life events have been so much luckier than mine such that they had both the mental and practical skills and the right opportunities for these paths to manifest for them. Lots of dwelling on my own lack of luck. I've just ended up with crippling mental issues and literal brain cancer, living in a little town where old people come to die, and I just don't feel capable of managing a more typical career path. Jumping off a cliff registers to my demons as a much more accessible and less painful path for me.

But this isn't a personal post, so I'll leave it at that.

I do wonder what to do about Divine Dreams though. It'd be terrible if I planned this three-Chapter series, only for the first to be a Sindrel-Song-scale flop and the others to do even worse because they'll essentially require the first one to make any sense.

One option might be to instead tell separate stories using essentially the same engine but without dependencies on previous installments. But the characters and story I've spent all year planning are so intertwined, and so large, that I can't see how I could extract some pieces either to make some smaller stories or to reduce the scale of this one so it could be released in one go.

Perhaps if I were to release "Divine Dreams", "Divine Dreams II", and "Divine Dreams III", as sequels, rather than calling it an episodic series from the start, it might feel different, register differently in people's minds... especially since each part would be (presumably?) a lot longer than the length of episodes in other episodic games (which I've not actually played, though I assume they're brief, like 1-2 hours or something?). Each of these three Chapters would be a length somewhere in between MARDEK 2 and MARDEK 3. Narratively, they're more like three Star Wars episodes than, say, an episodic series like The Mandalorian.

Or maybe even if it wouldn't reach some wide, barely-caring audience visible in PR stats, it might attract enough of a devoted - if small - following to fund development of additional chapters on Patreon and/or Kickstarter?

Or what if I wrote separate stories about individual characters, or pairs of characters, and brought them together eventually in some Avengers-style teamup if things went well? Or if they didn't, I wouldn't need to.

I don't know... It'll be a years-long commitment, and if the first is a flop, what then? Do I keep trying to make the other two anyway, hoping for the best? Abandon it, like so many other things?

Alternatively, I could try making something else, like a 3D adaptation of Alora Fane: Creation, that game I made a few years ago which lets players create their own adventures... But it all just feels like going in circles.

I don't know... I love the creative work and I know at least some people would love seeing an epic-scale Divine Dreams. It's just so frustrating how many people you have to reach in order to make it financially viable. It's not the case for all those other people who earn tens of thousands per year but only really have to worry about impressing their superior(s) and coworkers. Small, relatively comfortable worlds. I wish I could make enough money by appealing to a few hundred people at most, making something we can all really love... It's such a shame that's not possible because of how little each individual pays.

I don't know. I'm so depressed by this. I've been tracking my moods like a maniac for many months now, on a 7-point scale from abysmal to ecstatic, and this is the first time since I started recording that I've used the lowest number on that scale. I haven't felt this bad in ages, and it's all because my damn mental issues making promoting my work so difficult. I think I can make interesting things! What I struggle to make is enough people interested in them.

Perhaps I should just take a couple of weeks off doing any development, just... reading other indie devs' stories, playing their games, something like that... I've come this far with the games thing that it feels like such a waste to give it up, but there's obviously a lot I don't know because I just avoid so much. I've talked about breaking out of my shell so many times now, but due to the severity of my mental issues, it's always baby steps at best. I was talking about all this months ago... but maybe those baby steps do add up?

I suppose it's this crushing comparison that I fear most, by the way. Seeing how well other people are doing brings out severe hopelessness and revives the (thankfully long-dormant) suicidal ideation, which obviously isn't good. It's not something that could be fixed with drugs or therapy either; I need accomplishments, security, for that.

Anyway, sorry if this post is more personal even though it's not pushed away to that purple blog section fewer people are interested in reading. If I do make a major change to my direction, though, obviously that's very important for Divine Dreams.

To be clear, I'd be entirely happy to work on Divine Dreams for the next few years. The issue is entirely with earning enough money from it to actually do that. Either way I intend to do something with the engine and assets I've already made.

23 COMMENTS

JohnnyBoi45~4Y

I don't exactly know what to tell you, but I'm gonna try and be as supportive as possible. Yes, in many ways you have clearly drawn a really rough hand in life, and you chose a really tough career path (solo indie game dev), especially for someone who likes planning and creating such large-scale projects as yourself. But still, you really should be proud of what you've done. A port of a (still available) free game from 10 years ago that was barely advertised really should not have sold as well as it even did, but you sold quite a few copies of Mardek anyway. You did well!

But more importantly, please try and stop comparing yourself to every other thing in the industry. You have spoken before about your comparison anxiety and it seems the past week has really exacerbated that. You are not at the bottom of the barrel. I don't know if you should stop development, because it seems like you actually enjoy that, but I'd honestly say stop reading other people's stories for bit. Stop looking at wages for game devs employed at huge companies. Give yourself a break.

My last point: I noticed someone mention this on another post but this blog was the first one that got me thinking about it. I love this new idea of implementing music into the gameplay more, but looking at the trajectory of this development, there is a lot of changing and doubling back. I'm sure that's a part of every game's development, just more behind the scenes, but because you're a solo dev I get a bit concerned that your desire to perfect and tweak everything will stretch out the development process and both lose momentum from the audience and yourself (due to exhaustion) before you're finished.

I believe you can make it past this low point, because you have so much to offer, so keep pressing on.

But more importantly, please try and stop comparing yourself to every other thing in the industry. You have spoken before about your comparison anxiety and it seems the past week has really exacerbated that. You are not at the bottom of the barrel. I don't know if you should stop development, because it seems like you actually enjoy that, but I'd honestly say stop reading other people's stories for bit. Stop looking at wages for game devs employed at huge companies. Give yourself a break.

My last point: I noticed someone mention this on another post but this blog was the first one that got me thinking about it. I love this new idea of implementing music into the gameplay more, but looking at the trajectory of this development, there is a lot of changing and doubling back. I'm sure that's a part of every game's development, just more behind the scenes, but because you're a solo dev I get a bit concerned that your desire to perfect and tweak everything will stretch out the development process and both lose momentum from the audience and yourself (due to exhaustion) before you're finished.

I believe you can make it past this low point, because you have so much to offer, so keep pressing on.

Tobias 1115~4Y

I definitely am proud! I also acknowledge that I'm not at the bottom of the barrel either in terms of skills or earnings; far from it, from a whole lot of other indie stuff I've seen. The sheer volume of people you need to reach to earn even an amount equivalent to minimum wage is enormous, though, which I suppose is a problem with society in general or something, but a huge problem nonetheless.

I do try to avoid exposing myself to stuff that might leave me feeling this way. But then that's a problem too, because I don't know what's going on and I'm too sensitised to it, so when I am exposed to something, it hits deep. So what do I do? Keep avoiding so I don't feel bad? Or endure the pain of breaking out of that in the hope it'll lessen with more exposure? Obviously looking at all this stuff without the comparison would be ideal, but that's sort of like saying getting punched in the face without feeling the pain would be ideal.

I saw a couple of interesting videos recently while researching this. One was by a guy who'd spent 13 years of his life on a single webcomic; interestingly he didn't mention any stats about how much money that earned. He regretted it though, of course! Obviously what I'm doing isn't nearly as bad. That video also linked to another specifically about indie game dev, advising developers to 'fail faster': that is, these points where you realise you need to make big changes are something all developers experience (though they're usually hidden to players), and the key isn't to avoid them completely, but to get to them earlier so then you can push through them sooner.

I'm not trying to tweak every detail to perfection, but I do want to lay a solid foundation if I'm to spend several years of my life building on it. Sorting that out now would actually save time in the long run.

Thanks for commenting, though; feelings like this are difficult because they're based on unfortune facts which none of us can really do anything about. I appreciate the support though; it helps me pick myself back up again after these psychological falls.

I do try to avoid exposing myself to stuff that might leave me feeling this way. But then that's a problem too, because I don't know what's going on and I'm too sensitised to it, so when I am exposed to something, it hits deep. So what do I do? Keep avoiding so I don't feel bad? Or endure the pain of breaking out of that in the hope it'll lessen with more exposure? Obviously looking at all this stuff without the comparison would be ideal, but that's sort of like saying getting punched in the face without feeling the pain would be ideal.

I saw a couple of interesting videos recently while researching this. One was by a guy who'd spent 13 years of his life on a single webcomic; interestingly he didn't mention any stats about how much money that earned. He regretted it though, of course! Obviously what I'm doing isn't nearly as bad. That video also linked to another specifically about indie game dev, advising developers to 'fail faster': that is, these points where you realise you need to make big changes are something all developers experience (though they're usually hidden to players), and the key isn't to avoid them completely, but to get to them earlier so then you can push through them sooner.

I'm not trying to tweak every detail to perfection, but I do want to lay a solid foundation if I'm to spend several years of my life building on it. Sorting that out now would actually save time in the long run.

Thanks for commenting, though; feelings like this are difficult because they're based on unfortune facts which none of us can really do anything about. I appreciate the support though; it helps me pick myself back up again after these psychological falls.

JohnnyBoi45~4Y

So yes, exposing oneself to things that might be hurtful can be beneficial in the long run, adversity leads to growth, etc etc... but not if the result is just depression. This is something you will have to come to terms with eventually, an indie game dev is probably one of the most difficult careers in terms of making a living, and there will be people who get lucky succeed and a lot of the time those people won't be you. But if that statement makes you want to give everything up and end it all, that's not adversity causing growth, it's just harmful.

Also I do see that you've mentioned that creating small projects is impossible for you, and I hate to point this out because I certainly value all your creations, but most all of your large projects ended up unfinished. I'm glad that we have any amount of Mardek chapters that are playable, but now that you're really trying this as a way to gain a dedicated fanbase and make money, you've gotta make things you can see to the finish. Which might mean trying something smaller. You unfortunately have chosen the hardest kind of game to make in the ratio of development to playtime - a narrative RPG with few grindy mechanics. Most solo indie games are the opposite of that: shallow premise, grindy and incremental gameplay. I think something like a remake of AF:C might be a bit better for that ratio, in that you need to only create the framework and then players create their own experience. I really want to support your endeavors - I bought Mardek right away and Sindrel Song months ago, but a reason I've been hesitant to jump on your patreon is that I don't have enough funds myself to donate monthly when your projects seem so far away.

A suggestion: you have this new, really enticing cast of characters, and a lot of gameplay framework. Make an actual "QuickQuest" - something that isn't necessarily related to your grand scheme, but just something simple using what you have. It could be freeing to try something with this new framework that doesn't need to be fully thought out, and more importantly will give people something to play that acts as proof of concept for your game design. I guess this I'm describing the dreamcave demo you're making, but I'd suggest doing something that's not even part of the final game, so you have more time to plan. I know modeling assets takes time, so reuse what you can, but I think it would benefit for people to actually understand what kind of games you're designing now, because our only references are a relatively niche rhythm/music game, a 10-year-old 2d flash RPG, and a handful of platformers, none of which are what Divine Dreams is. Variety is the spice of life but it makes a business hard to brand, and branding will definitely help a solo indie dev.

Also I do see that you've mentioned that creating small projects is impossible for you, and I hate to point this out because I certainly value all your creations, but most all of your large projects ended up unfinished. I'm glad that we have any amount of Mardek chapters that are playable, but now that you're really trying this as a way to gain a dedicated fanbase and make money, you've gotta make things you can see to the finish. Which might mean trying something smaller. You unfortunately have chosen the hardest kind of game to make in the ratio of development to playtime - a narrative RPG with few grindy mechanics. Most solo indie games are the opposite of that: shallow premise, grindy and incremental gameplay. I think something like a remake of AF:C might be a bit better for that ratio, in that you need to only create the framework and then players create their own experience. I really want to support your endeavors - I bought Mardek right away and Sindrel Song months ago, but a reason I've been hesitant to jump on your patreon is that I don't have enough funds myself to donate monthly when your projects seem so far away.

A suggestion: you have this new, really enticing cast of characters, and a lot of gameplay framework. Make an actual "QuickQuest" - something that isn't necessarily related to your grand scheme, but just something simple using what you have. It could be freeing to try something with this new framework that doesn't need to be fully thought out, and more importantly will give people something to play that acts as proof of concept for your game design. I guess this I'm describing the dreamcave demo you're making, but I'd suggest doing something that's not even part of the final game, so you have more time to plan. I know modeling assets takes time, so reuse what you can, but I think it would benefit for people to actually understand what kind of games you're designing now, because our only references are a relatively niche rhythm/music game, a 10-year-old 2d flash RPG, and a handful of platformers, none of which are what Divine Dreams is. Variety is the spice of life but it makes a business hard to brand, and branding will definitely help a solo indie dev.

Tobias 1115~4Y

Divine Dreams is specifically planned to make completion feasible, once I get started, though it would also be nice to make some kind of shorter first game using what I've already got, as a proof of concept, like you said. But then who would be the characters? Would it have a narrative? Would it tie into an eventual story? I'd need to choose someone as the player characters, but then anything I do with them could potentially take away from things that were supposed to happen in the plans for Divine Dreams. So I like the idea, I just don't know what it'd involve exactly.

I was planning to make a separate demo for the game anyway, unrelated to any of the chapters (unlike the original plan, which was to make the Dreamcave chapter the demo), so maybe I could just release that as a separate thing?

One idea that comes to mind is a kind of detached prequel thing. In what I have planned, Dayvha's father, Savitr, is the most highly-renowned member of the Seraphim, who Nytsky looks up to and pretends to be in the fantasy sequence that would begin Chapter 1 of Episode 1. Beyond that, though - like with Enki in MARDEK - he wouldn't be directly featured in the story until much later. So one idea is that I could make a standalone story about one of his missions as a Seraph, which could hint at plot stuff that I've planned for Divine Dreams without necessarily leading to a direct sequel. There's another seraph character - the one who trains Dayvha and Nytsky - who could be his apprentice here, maybe, and you'd just control those two as they explore maybe a forest and a cave with a little hub village or something, if even that.

So that's an idea, but it'd require at least a bit of planning and some new asset creation. That's not the most time-consuming part though, really; deciding what to do is!

I also watched a bunch of Pokemon challenge run videos recently because they came up in my youtube suggestions, and I had a renewed interest in making a monster-catching game of my own. Unlike the plot-driven attempts I made years ago, though, I tried to imagine something which would require the minimum number of assets but which would allow a lot of replayability, freedom, and raw appeal.

One idea - based on another of these videos where someone hacked Pokemon Black/White 2 to allow human characters to appear as wild Pokemon ("wild Black Belt appeared!") - was that the player was an alien, who caught and trained humans and had them fight one-on-one, Pokemon-style. Comical. Either the humans could be distinct 'species' - stereotypes, like the Belief idea I explored last year - or perhaps they'd all be randomly-generated, so every one was different. Perhaps there'd be a fairly small open world to explore, or something. Just a few areas. No real narrative.

That then led to an idea based on others I've explored in the past, where instead you control a human who wakes up 'naked' (or in underwear or something) on a randomly-generated desert island, and you have to find food, items to craft clothing, etc. Perhaps you could meet other randomly-generated people, also marooned on this strange island, and have them join your party, and perhaps you could battle other roving parties with one-on-one Pokemon-style battles (you can switch out the current battler). Since everyone would be a human, it'd mean I'd just need to make a fairly simple customisable character model (or two, one for each sex), then every creature would just be using the same animations and model instead of having to design unique creatures. A randomly-generated island would allow replayability without much creative effort on my part, just some algorithm-writing. Perhaps the aim could be to gather six golden keys from across the island, which would unlock some golden gate that brought you to freedom (this was the case in the earlier version of this I made years ago, which was text-based). Perhaps you could either befriend or kill your enemies.

I'd be curious to make something like this for the technical challenge if nothing else, and it does seem to have some of the basic survivalist appeal whole genres are built around. It's an idea I keep returning to in some form or another. I could even tie it into the Alora Fane setting by saying that this is the Bold as they've just been introduced into their world by the Aolmna, right at the beginning, before they even have proper language. Or something.

So I have ideas like that, and an urge to explore them, and they seem shorter than something like Divine Dreams... But I also wonder whether they'd even be appealing or remarkable enough to be worth distracting myself with. Maybe I could do some brainstorming tomorrow and see what I come up with, I don't know. Maybe they'd just be Sindrel Song all over again, months wasted.

I was planning to make a separate demo for the game /anyway/, unrelated to any of the chapters (unlike the original plan, which was to make the Dreamcave chapter the demo), so maybe I could just release that as a separate thing?

One idea that comes to mind is a kind of detached prequel thing. In what I have planned, Dayvha's father, Savitr, is the most highly-renowned member of the Seraphim, who Nytsky looks up to and pretends to be in the fantasy sequence that would begin Chapter 1 of Episode 1. Beyond that, though - like with Enki in MARDEK - he wouldn't be directly featured in the story until much later. So one idea is that I could make a standalone story about one of his missions as a Seraph, which could hint at plot stuff that I've planned for Divine Dreams without necessarily leading to a direct sequel. There's another seraph character - the one who trains Dayvha and Nytsky - who could be his apprentice here, maybe, and you'd just control those two as they explore maybe a forest and a cave with a little hub village or something, if even that.

So that's an idea, but it'd require at least a bit of planning and some new asset creation. That's not the most time-consuming part though, really; deciding what to do is!

I also watched a bunch of Pokemon challenge run videos recently because they came up in my youtube suggestions, and I had a renewed interest in making a monster-catching game of my own. Unlike the plot-driven attempts I made years ago, though, I tried to imagine something which would require the minimum number of assets but which would allow a lot of replayability, freedom, and raw appeal.

One idea - based on another of these videos where someone hacked Pokemon Black/White 2 to allow human characters to appear as wild Pokemon ("wild Black Belt appeared!") - was that the player was an alien, who caught and trained humans and had them fight one-on-one, Pokemon-style. Comical. Either the humans could be distinct 'species' - stereotypes, like the Belief idea I explored last year - or perhaps they'd all be randomly-generated, so every one was different. Perhaps there'd be a fairly small open world to explore, or something. Just a few areas. No real narrative.

That then led to an idea based on others I've explored in the past, where instead you control a human who wakes up 'naked' (or in underwear or something) on a randomly-generated desert island, and you have to find food, items to craft clothing, etc. Perhaps you could meet other randomly-generated people, also marooned on this strange island, and have them join your party, and perhaps you could battle other roving parties with one-on-one Pokemon-style battles (you can switch out the current battler). Since everyone would be a human, it'd mean I'd just need to make a fairly simple customisable character model (or two, one for each sex), then every creature would just be using the same animations and model instead of having to design unique creatures. A randomly-generated island would allow replayability without much creative effort on my part, just some algorithm-writing. Perhaps the aim could be to gather six golden keys from across the island, which would unlock some golden gate that brought you to freedom (this was the case in the earlier version of this I made years ago, which was text-based). Perhaps you could either befriend or kill your enemies.

I'd be curious to make something like this for the technical challenge if nothing else, and it does seem to have some of the basic survivalist appeal whole genres are built around. It's an idea I keep returning to in some form or another. I could even tie it into the Alora Fane setting by saying that this is the Bold as they've just been introduced into their world by the Aolmna, right at the beginning, before they even have proper language. Or something.

So I have ideas like that, and an urge to explore them, and they /seem/ shorter than something like Divine Dreams... But I also wonder whether they'd even be appealing or remarkable enough to be worth distracting myself with. Maybe I could do some brainstorming tomorrow and see what I come up with, I don't know. Maybe they'd just be Sindrel Song all over again, months wasted.

Astreon152~4Y

I like your idea of a "stranded on an island" game. Have you heard of or played "lost in blue" ? You could get useful info from that :)

I'm thinking back to when you were working on belief, and had a model island, with bridges and ladders. Basic, but by tweaking it a little, that might be resuable ?

Also, since it's all about reusing stuff to hasten the rate of making the game, why not reuse the concept of belief ? There could be multiple ways to escape the island: alone, with one partner, or with all of the people "dropped" on it (or whatever lore you find ton integrate this to alorafane's universe).
And to escape with everyone, you'd have to "convert" them, reusing Belief's battle system (or something adapted from it).

Some NPCs would hate another one, so they would not want to be part of the same "survival" team (no cooperation, or even dispute over resources once you reach "their" territory on the island). You'd have to reconcile them so they agree to work together (and only then would you have peaceful access to each "territory's" resources).

Some might even be fine on the island and not want to escape, you'd have to convince them to get their keys, or better, come with you.

Etc.

I like your idea of a "stranded on an island" game. Have you heard of or played "lost in blue" ? You could get useful info from that :)

I'm thinking back to when you were working on belief, and had a model island, with bridges and ladders. Basic, but by tweaking it a little, that might be resuable ?

Also, since it's all about reusing stuff to hasten the rate of making the game, why not reuse the concept of belief ? There could be multiple ways to escape the island: alone, with one partner, or with all of the people "dropped" on it (or whatever lore you find ton integrate this to alorafane's universe). 
And to escape with everyone, you'd have to "convert" them, reusing Belief's battle system (or something adapted from it).

Some NPCs would hate another one, so they would not want to be part of the same "survival" team (no cooperation, or even dispute over resources once you reach "their" territory on the island). You'd have to reconcile them so they agree to work together (and only then would you have peaceful access to each "territory's" resources).

Some might even be fine on the island and not want to escape, you'd have to convince them to get their keys, or better, come with you.

Etc.

JohnnyBoi45~4Y

Your detached prequel idea sounds fun! I would definitely be into that. My thought was just to use the four "main" characters in sort of a "mission out of context" thing, having little (or nothing) to do with the game story itself but focusing on the character's personalities and dialogue. As you've seen from the opposition to some of your changes (including from myself), people really loved the characters. Even if the original versions weren't nearly as developed as these new creations, they were funny and sympathetic, and you really cared about them. I remember playing Mardek 2 (before 3 was even released) and being legitimately *sad* about Deugan's apparent fate, to the point where I thought about it hours later after I had finished. I think getting people acquainted with these characters and having them like them gives you the best chance of locking in interest.

Your procedurally generated pokemon-style game also sounds really fun - definitely has some good widespread appeal possibilities. Obviously nothing is certain but I'd suggest not comparing to Sindrel Song specifically, not just due to lack of promotion but because that game was so very niche in target audience. I think these ideas might be more marketable.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, I finished Mardek on steam tonight! Got all 40 medals as well, which I think is the first time I've managed it: [LINK] This game has brought me so much joy over the years and I truly never get bored of it.

Your procedurally generated pokemon-style game also sounds really fun - definitely has some good widespread appeal possibilities. Obviously nothing is certain but I'd suggest not comparing to Sindrel Song specifically, not just due to lack of promotion but because that game was so very niche in target audience. I think these ideas might be more marketable.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, I finished Mardek on steam tonight! Got all 40 medals as well, which I think is the first time I've managed it: https://imgur.com/a/smwqJ5c This game has brought me so much joy over the years and I truly never get bored of it.

MontyCallay101~4Y

I'm sorry to hear that you're so worried about this again. Just remember that, no matter what happens, if you have to get a side job, have to claim unemployment benefits, whatever, you can always take the free time that you have to create something meaningful and make other people happy. If you don't succeed now, you can always get back up again. You have already made things that have personally impacted more people than most will ever reach in their entire lives. You are far from a failure.

For some context, with salaries, it makes a lot of sense to compare that to the costs of living. For example, some parts of the US (California, NYC etc.) are real outliers in terms of salaries and costs of living; people have to be paid that highly to live: [LINK]
Europe in general and smaller towns in particular generally have far more affordable costs of living.

I like the idea of taking some time off to play some games and look at other developers and so on. That will probably be useful in the long term. While I'd agree that the scale of Divine Dreams means that you're exposing yourself to some risk, there's no sense in getting panicked and making hasty decisions now. Maybe take a step back from game development for at least a day or so, let your mood curve swing back to medium, then, once you're feeling a bit better, start exposing yourself to some other developers and their strategies. Being inspired by other games, after all, was what gave rise to MARDEK originally. And it seemed to work well when you looked at some Patreon pages!

Personally, I'm not entirely sure if having the chapters as separate games would make it sufficiently different from an episodic structure - as you said, the stories are so intertwined that separating them (other than by story structure) probably wouldn't make a lot of sense in itself for players. Divine Dreams II probably wouldn't make a lot of sense without having played Divine Dreams I. Star Wars (which only became a series after the unexpected success of the first film) and the Lord of the Rings films (which ware seen as an risky endeavour at the time) were incredibly ambitious projects in themselves!

The biggest challenge I see here is probably the gaps between the chapters. If you are planning a development time of 4-6 years in total, that's a lot of time for people to lose interest between releases. That's not to say I don't think you could pull it off sustainably, but it would probably need the community/patreon to be larger than they are right now.

I'd certainly appreciate seeing some interesting smaller projects from you as well (and it might be an easier start for your promotion journey) but there's no option that "guarantees" success, sadly. Is there some form of unemployment benefit you could claim for the time being that would at least give you some security?

For some context, with salaries, it makes a lot of sense to compare that to the costs of living. For example, some parts of the US (California, NYC etc.) are real outliers in terms of salaries and costs of living; people have to be paid that highly to live: https://twitter.com/xavierck3d/status/1269730619648389120
Europe in general and smaller towns in particular generally have far more affordable costs of living.

I like the idea of taking some time off to play some games and look at other developers and so on. That will probably be useful in the long term. While I'd agree that the scale of Divine Dreams means that you're exposing yourself to some risk, there's no sense in getting panicked and making hasty decisions now. Maybe take a step back from game development for at least a day or so, let your mood curve swing back to medium, then, once you're feeling a bit better, start exposing yourself to some other developers and their strategies. Being inspired by other games, after all, was what gave rise to MARDEK originally. And it seemed to work well when you looked at some Patreon pages!

Personally, I'm not entirely sure if having the chapters as separate games would make it sufficiently different from an episodic structure - as you said, the stories are so intertwined that separating them (other than by story structure) probably wouldn't make a lot of sense in itself for players. Divine Dreams II probably wouldn't make a lot of sense without having played Divine Dreams I. Star Wars (which only became a series after the unexpected success of the first film) and the Lord of the Rings films (which ware seen as an risky endeavour at the time) were incredibly ambitious projects in themselves!

The biggest challenge I see here is probably the gaps between the chapters. If you are planning a development time of 4-6 years in total, that's a lot of time for people to lose interest between releases. That's not to say I don't think you could pull it off sustainably, but it would probably need the community/patreon to be larger than they are right now.

I'd certainly appreciate seeing some interesting smaller projects from you as well (and it might be an easier start for your promotion journey) but there's no option that "guarantees" success, sadly. Is there some form of unemployment benefit you could claim for the time being that would at least give you some security?

Tobias 1115~4Y

That thread you linked to is so useful and important; context is key, and I don't have any, which is why it was so shocking to me seeing those numbers. Interesting to see that enough other people were surprised that this person took the time to explain it in detail.

Still, he mentions having "just" $10k a year to spend on food etc, which reminds me of some image of the hardships the American rich face, with only something like $100k a year 'to feed their family'. Or maybe a politician said it or something, I don't remember. People were entirely hostile in response because of the out-of-touch entitlement of it all, but having $10k a year 'left over' feels sort of similar to me. I was thinking if I made that with a Kickstarter, I'd be set for a year.

I recognise that what I've made has been important to a lot of people all over the world, and that's why it's so sad and painful to think of getting some more 'mundane' job instead. It's not that I'm some elitist who considers work like that beneath me or anything, it's just that maybe people underestimate the amount of time and - perhaps more importantly - energy this games thing takes, so the thought of having another job and doing games dev just feels impossible to me. I know a lot of people do seem to do it, but they also seem to make smaller projects than me, or work in teams, or just don't have crippling mental health issues. I have the abilities to make things that can bring more to people's lives than me stacking shelves (or whatever) ever could, and it's a shame to waste that. Like putting a frail spellcaster on melee duty while the hulking brute casts the magic, or something! I actually feel like I've found my purpose, doing this; it's just the money thing that gets in the way.

I think I'm just so sensitised to this kind of stuff because of how much I avoid. So I think even if I took a couple of weeks off to do stuff like deeply browsing the indie dev subreddits and playing games like Celeste and Undertale, that might... well, it'll probably be painful and maybe I'll end up writing more posts like this, but hopefully it'll be a transition to a better mental place. Hopefully. I know I've talked about doing it for ages, but I feel like I'm closer this time, like I've already taken some steps.

Something I was just thinking about is having the Chapters as 'Seasons', with a 'Season pass' to play all of their episodes, but those episodes are released episodically. All three Seasons could be released as separate things. That way there wouldn't be too much of a wait between them... but there might still be all the issues I was worrying about in this post, with dwindling interest over time. I'll need to think about it.

The problem with smaller projects is that I can't do them! I mean, Sindrel Song was a smaller project, and that took months... Even MARDEK was created as a 'QuickQuest'. Trying again just seems like it'd go the same way again... That works best for people who like and make those 'toy' games which have no story or setting, just a mechanical set of rules to play around with.

As far as I can tell, the only unemployment benefits are for people who can prove they're looking for a job currently (it's called "jobseeker's allowance"). There's also disability benefits, but apparently I didn't qualify for those when I applied last time (most people get rejected though, or so I read, even people with genuine severe disabilities).

Still, he mentions having "just" $10k a year to spend on food etc, which reminds me of some image of the /hardships/ the American rich face, with only something like $100k a year 'to feed their family'. Or maybe a politician said it or something, I don't remember. People were entirely hostile in response because of the out-of-touch entitlement of it all, but having $10k a year 'left over' feels sort of similar to me. I was thinking if I made that with a Kickstarter, I'd be set for a year.

I recognise that what I've made has been important to a lot of people all over the world, and that's why it's so sad and painful to think of getting some more 'mundane' job instead. It's not that I'm some elitist who considers work like that beneath me or anything, it's just that maybe people underestimate the amount of time and - perhaps more importantly - /energy/ this games thing takes, so the thought of having another job /and/ doing games dev just feels impossible to me. I know a lot of people do seem to do it, but they also seem to make smaller projects than me, or work in teams, or just don't have crippling mental health issues. I have the abilities to make things that can bring more to people's lives than me stacking shelves (or whatever) ever could, and it's a shame to waste that. Like putting a frail spellcaster on melee duty while the hulking brute casts the magic, or something! I actually feel like I've found my purpose, doing this; it's just the money thing that gets in the way.

I think I'm just so sensitised to this kind of stuff because of how much I avoid. So I think even if I took a couple of weeks off to do stuff like deeply browsing the indie dev subreddits and playing games like Celeste and Undertale, that might... well, it'll probably be painful and maybe I'll end up writing more posts like this, but hopefully it'll be a transition to a better mental place. Hopefully. I know I've talked about doing it for ages, but I feel like I'm closer this time, like I've already taken /some/ steps.

Something I was just thinking about is having the Chapters as 'Seasons', with a 'Season pass' to play all of their episodes, but those episodes are released episodically. All three Seasons could be released as separate things. That way there wouldn't be /too/ much of a wait between them... but there might still be all the issues I was worrying about in this post, with dwindling interest over time. I'll need to think about it.

The problem with smaller projects is that I can't do them! I mean, Sindrel Song was a smaller project, and that took months... Even MARDEK was created as a 'QuickQuest'. Trying again just seems like it'd go the same way again... That works best for people who like and make those 'toy' games which have no story or setting, just a mechanical set of rules to play around with.

As far as I can tell, the only unemployment benefits are for people who can prove they're looking for a job currently (it's called "jobseeker's allowance"). There's also disability benefits, but apparently I didn't qualify for those when I applied last time (most people get rejected though, or so I read, even people with genuine severe disabilities).

Maniafig222~4Y

I suppose I'll address the concept art and whatnot first.

I like the music instrument motif! The resonars are neat! They suit him quite well, they're interesting gameplay-wise (being able to equip two) and it fits the whole Miasma/sentimancy concept well.

The only thing I'm wondering about is where these characters would get their weapon upgrades from, but then JRPGs rarely bother to explain why there's all sorts of unconventional weaponry scattered about!

I do notice you keep avoiding the term sentiments and sentimancy though! I like those terms!!

So, the rest of the blog...

The games that article about are rather different from your own, I think most of them are much more narratively driven than Divine Dreams, they have less meaty gameplay and whatnot. They're also all made by studios, I wouldn't call them indie games the same way I call your games indie games! That's why I wonder how well these findings all map to your project.

I was shocked when I looked at that twitter tag too, those salaries were all way beyond what people would get here! Turns out they're a really bad comparison point, since the costs of living seem to be massively inflated in a lot of places where those game devs live. The rent there alone is a gigantic chunk of what I make in a month!

If I earned anything close to what they earn living here I'd work 30 hours a week and retire early! You really cannot compare yourself to them, as it seems a lot of them also barely scrounge by financially it seems, and are littered with debts and whatnot, which I'm assuming you don't have?

That's also an advantage you have, I'm guessing the costs of living in your area are much lower than they'd be in more metropolitan areas. You also don't seem like you're that interested in having a lot of luxury and expensive products and whatnot, let alone money sinks such as traveling, vacations, pets or children, which also lowers the threshold of how much you need to earn significantly!

It's definitely too early right now to drastically revise the whole structure of the game or start working on a 3D AF:C!

Perhaps instead of having 3 big chapter releases, the releases could be per episode instead, similar to Taming Dreams? Maybe having a steadier stream of content being put out makes it easier to retain an audience and gives more chances for people to notice the series and jump in.

Sadly, I just don't think a career path in indie game dev will ever have a path that guarantees stability, it's only possible to increase the odds.

But until you do reach that point where you have a steady fanbase, are there other ways to get some level of steady income? Unemployment benefits, social benefits? Low-risk jobs that don't require interpersonal interactions? It needn't be anything glamorous that one can build a career on, it could be something like a menial job during just the evening hours.

Just keep in mind all of this might very well just be temporary! It needn't be that what you decide to stick with now will be what you're stuck with the rest of your life, it's just a period of your life that once it's overcome will let you build the audience you need to finance a modest and simple life in a modest and simple area!

I'm quite sure many of those people talking about their salaries on Twitter had these periods of their life where they were doing nothing but accumulating and piling on debt and working their way up to finally making enough to start paying off that debt!

I suppose I'll address the concept art and whatnot first.

I like the music instrument motif! The resonars are neat! They suit him quite well, they're interesting gameplay-wise (being able to equip two) and it fits the whole Miasma/sentimancy concept well.

The only thing I'm wondering about is where these characters would get their weapon upgrades from, but then JRPGs rarely bother to explain why there's all sorts of unconventional weaponry scattered about!

I do notice you keep avoiding the term sentiments and sentimancy though! I like those terms!!

So, the rest of the blog...

The games that article about are rather different from your own, I think most of them are much more narratively driven than Divine Dreams, they have less meaty gameplay and whatnot. They're also all made by studios, I wouldn't call them indie games the same way I call your games indie games! That's why I wonder how well these findings all map to your project.

I was shocked when I looked at that twitter tag too, those salaries were all way beyond what people would get here! Turns out they're a really bad comparison point, since the costs of living seem to be massively inflated in a lot of places where those game devs live. The rent there alone is a gigantic chunk of what I make in a month!

If I earned anything close to what they earn living here I'd work 30 hours a week and retire early! You really cannot compare yourself to them, as it seems a lot of them also barely scrounge by financially it seems, and are littered with debts and whatnot, which I'm assuming you don't have?

That's also an advantage you have, I'm guessing the costs of living in your area are much lower than they'd be in more metropolitan areas. You also don't seem like you're that interested in having a lot of luxury and expensive products and whatnot, let alone money sinks such as traveling, vacations, pets or children, which also lowers the threshold of how much you need to earn significantly!

It's definitely too early right now to drastically revise the whole structure of the game or start working on a 3D AF:C!

Perhaps instead of having 3 big chapter releases, the releases could be per episode instead, similar to Taming Dreams? Maybe having a steadier stream of content being put out makes it easier to retain an audience and gives more chances for people to notice the series and jump in.

Sadly, I just don't think a career path in indie game dev will ever have a path that guarantees stability, it's only possible to increase the odds.

But until you do reach that point where you have a steady fanbase, are there other ways to get some level of steady income? Unemployment benefits, social benefits? Low-risk jobs that don't require interpersonal interactions? It needn't be anything glamorous that one can build a career on, it could be something like a menial job during just the evening hours.

Just keep in mind all of this might very well just be temporary! It needn't be that what you decide to stick with now will be what you're stuck with the rest of your life, it's just a period of your life that once it's overcome will let you build the audience you need to finance a modest and simple life in a modest and simple area!

I'm quite sure many of those people talking about their salaries on Twitter had these periods of their life where they were doing nothing but accumulating and piling on debt and working their way up to finally making enough to start paying off that debt!

Tobias 1115~4Y

I imagine in a world where resonars exist and can be used for magic and melee, many people would use them! Maybe the cultists - the bandit equivalents - would use them?

I saw the other Twitter thread that MontyCallay linked to, where someone took the time to explain the extremely high American salaries since I'm not the only one who was surprised by them. It does put things into perspective.

I'd be entirely happy living in a tiny one-room studio appartment with very little furniture; as long as I had a computer, a bed, bathroom, and kitchen, I don't really want or need anything else. Around here, places like that cost something like Â£600 a month to rent, so around US$750, which is cheaper than the US cities, but still obviously not something I'm close to being able to pay for in the long term... yet. Then there are various bills and food to pay on top of that.

I do actually have a considerable student debt from going to university, I think? Maybe it's something like $20k? More? I don't remember. Apparently you don't have to start paying it back until you earn a certain amount, which I don't yet, so maybe it'll rear its ugly head even if I do start earning a significant amount.

I got the impression that those other games in that article were purely narrative in a way that would give them such a different feel to what I'm making. Like the narrative is the game, or something, whereas in Divine Dreams, the game is the areas you explore, with the narrative existing on top of that and tying it all together, but there'd be much more to explore and do in replays. So maybe it would register differently to players, I don't know.

Something I was just wondering about was whether to make the Chapters into 'Seasons', for which you get a Season Pass which would unlock all of the episodes as they were released, but there'd be three separately-released Seasons. It's not ideal since I wouldn't be able to go back and change things once I'd released an episode, and I don't know if it'd avoid or exacerbate any of the issues I've been worried about, like dwindling attention, but it's a thought.

I hate the thought of getting some 'mundane' real-world job not because I feel it's beneath me or anything, but because it'd be incredibly stressful for me, even if it was something everyone else could do with ease like flipping burgers or whatever. But I think there are ways to find quick freelance jobs online, maybe? I know there is or was that site called Fiver or Fiverr or whatever where people offered to, say, draw a picture or something for a certain cost, and I saw a youtuber who paid for a few of these and the quality was fairly poor even when he paid like $100 for it! But I don't know how the logistics of that work, how you go about finding these jobs, and what kind of stuff you have to make. From what I've seen, it seems soul-draining.

Maybe I should just do very specific fetish furry porn for internet perverts or something. That seems to pay better than most commission gigs, from what I've read. Though of course it costs your fragments of your soul to actually do.

I get the feeling that people who end up in those high-paying jobs had a better trajectory from the beginning, though... Supportive family members and mentors, being urged into employment early, things like that, all of which I missed out on. So while they might have had some dry patches, the 'employment mentality' and life experience they had from an early age allows them to pick themselves up again. Getting a new or better job, even after a period of unemployment, is much easier than getting a first job at age 32 with absolutely no prior Real World Job experience, both in terms of whether anyone will hire you in the first place and the mental challenges of adapting to it!

I imagine in a world where resonars exist and can be used for magic and melee, many people would use them! Maybe the cultists - the bandit equivalents - would use them?

I saw the other Twitter thread that MontyCallay linked to, where someone took the time to explain the extremely high American salaries since I'm not the only one who was surprised by them. It does put things into perspective.

I'd be entirely happy living in a tiny one-room studio appartment with very little furniture; as long as I had a computer, a bed, bathroom, and kitchen, I don't really want or need anything else. Around here, places like that cost something like Â£600 a month to rent, so around US$750, which is cheaper than the US cities, but still obviously not something I'm close to being able to pay for in the long term... yet. Then there are various bills and food to pay on top of that.

I do actually have a considerable student debt from going to university, I think? Maybe it's something like $20k? More? I don't remember. Apparently you don't have to start paying it back until you earn a certain amount, which I don't yet, so maybe it'll rear its ugly head even if I do start earning a significant amount.

I got the impression that those other games in that article were purely narrative in a way that would give them such a different feel to what I'm making. Like the narrative /is/ the game, or something, whereas in Divine Dreams, the game is the areas you explore, with the narrative existing on top of that and tying it all together, but there'd be much more to explore and do in replays. So maybe it would register differently to players, I don't know.

Something I was just wondering about was whether to make the Chapters into 'Seasons', for which you get a Season Pass which would unlock all of the episodes as they were released, but there'd be three separately-released Seasons. It's not ideal since I wouldn't be able to go back and change things once I'd released an episode, and I don't know if it'd avoid or exacerbate any of the issues I've been worried about, like dwindling attention, but it's a thought.

I hate the thought of getting some 'mundane' real-world job not because I feel it's beneath me or anything, but because it'd be incredibly stressful for me, even if it was something everyone else could do with ease like flipping burgers or whatever. But I think there are ways to find quick freelance jobs online, maybe? I know there is or was that site called Fiver or Fiverr or whatever where people offered to, say, draw a picture or something for a certain cost, and I saw a youtuber who paid for a few of these and the quality was fairly poor even when he paid like $100 for it! But I don't know how the logistics of that work, how you go about finding these jobs, and what kind of stuff you have to make. From what I've seen, it seems soul-draining.

Maybe I should just do very specific fetish furry porn for internet perverts or something. That seems to pay better than most commission gigs, from what I've read. Though of course it costs your fragments of your soul to actually do.

I get the feeling that people who end up in those high-paying jobs had a better trajectory from the beginning, though... Supportive family members and mentors, being urged into employment early, things like that, all of which I missed out on. So while they might have had some dry patches, the 'employment mentality' and life experience they had from an early age allows them to pick themselves up again. Getting a new or better job, even after a period of unemployment, is much easier than getting a first job at age 32 with absolutely no prior Real World Job experience, both in terms of whether anyone will hire you in the first place and the mental challenges of adapting to it!

Alban12320~4Y

I think AloraFane sounds as a good idea that is something everyone would like to buy because, who doesn't like to make quests in their own.

As for Divine Dreams i think you are doing the same mistake you did with Taming Dreams, you are going too far from Mardek here, you know when i saw the demo for Divine Dreams i was amazed because it ressembled Mardek and at the same time it was something different
(which made us happy and made you happy too, and remember you said that DD will be a combination between Mardek and Taming Dreams, now i think it's more like a combination between Memody Sindre's Song and Taming Dreams, you always try to exclude Mardek from your games). I really loved it because it reminded me of Mardek so imagine if this game's cost will be higher and you will advertise the game all of the people who love Mardek will buy it (so you might really win a lot from this). But now it's entirely different, the game has no longer any ressemblence with Mardek, so by doing this people who actually want to buy Divine Dreams because is connected to Mardek they will not want to buy it anymore because it's something else (just like Memody Sindrel's Song people know that you made it but they know it's not Mardek).

Memody Sindrel's Song is a very good game but people are very interested in Mardek, i mean i wonder why you can't see that, a game which is a 10 years old game actually sold more than your recent game which is made in 3D Unity imagine if that old game become becomes 3D game the selling would be tripled.

So by disconnecting DivineDreams from Mardek you are doing the same mistake, i mean why do you have to complicate things always, you started so well with the DivineDreams, and you made a demo and people loved it, i have a Mardek facebook page, and people started to write me about it and they were so happy that finally you are going to make a game that bring back some nostalgia, i personally have led many people to your site, but now after you made such an amazing demo, you just decided to change everything and going from "Brown Mardek" into "Red Devil".

So belive me Tobias i have seen just as many have seen that you have great potential, and one day all your work will be recognised and if you are ever going to acheive great success that would be because of Mardek.

And as for price i'm sure that if you don't change the game and you make it as we saw in demo people will want to pay up to 50$ to play that, i know they would because i would too. But by changing it you are satisfying yourself maybe, but if you want to make money you should care what people that would buy your game want too otherwise it wouldn't be about making profit from a game but it will be to satisfy yourself.

Tobias i have seen that everytime you change plans for the game you get tired because you have to do everything from the beggining just like now se please know that i'm not criticising you i just want to give my oppinion as your work fan.

Also i wanted to ask you something, can i make the continuation of Mardek, so Mardek 4 seeing that you would never make it, is that even legal i want to hear your thoughts about this?

I think AloraFane sounds as a good idea that is something everyone would like to buy because, who doesn't like to make quests in their own.

As for Divine Dreams i think you are doing the same mistake you did with Taming Dreams, you are going too far from Mardek here, you know when i saw the demo for Divine Dreams i was amazed because it ressembled Mardek and at the same time it was something different  
(which made us happy and made you happy too, and remember you said that DD will be a combination between Mardek and Taming Dreams, now i think it's more like a combination between Memody Sindre's Song and Taming Dreams, you always try to exclude Mardek from your games). I really loved it because it reminded me of Mardek so imagine if this game's cost will be higher and you will advertise the game all of the people who love Mardek will buy it (so you might really win a lot from this). But now it's entirely different, the game has no longer any ressemblence with Mardek, so by doing this people who actually want to buy Divine Dreams because is connected to Mardek they will not want to buy it anymore because it's something else (just like Memody Sindrel's Song people know that you made it but they know it's not Mardek).

Memody Sindrel's Song is a very good game but people are very interested in Mardek, i mean i wonder why you can't see that, a game which is a 10 years old game actually sold more than your recent game which is made in 3D Unity imagine if that old game become becomes 3D game the selling would be tripled.

So by disconnecting DivineDreams from Mardek you are doing the same mistake, i mean why do you have to complicate things always, you started so well with the DivineDreams, and you made a demo and people loved it, i have a Mardek facebook page, and people started to write me about it and they were so happy that finally you are going to make a game that bring back some nostalgia, i personally have led many people to your site, but now after you made such an amazing demo, you just decided to change everything and going from "Brown Mardek" into "Red Devil".

So belive me Tobias i have seen just as many have seen that you have great potential, and one day all your work will be recognised and if you are ever going to acheive great success that would be because of Mardek.

And as for price i'm sure that if you don't change the game and you make it as we saw in demo people will want to pay up to 50$ to play that, i know they would because i would too. But by changing it you are satisfying yourself maybe, but if you want to make money you should care what people that would buy your game want too otherwise it wouldn't be about making profit from a game but it will be to satisfy yourself.

Tobias i have seen that everytime you change plans for the game you get tired because you have to do everything from the beggining just like now se please know that i'm not criticising you i just want to give my oppinion as your work fan.

Also i wanted to ask you something, can i make the continuation of Mardek, so Mardek 4 seeing that you would never make it, is that even legal i want to hear your thoughts about this?

Maniafig222~4Y

The fun thing about comments like these is we now know exactly how much interest there is in MARDEK from its Steam release, meaning we have tangible evidence this comment overstates MARDEK's importance.

Knowledge like that is truly priceless.

astralwolf92~4Y

I think patreon serves to fulfill this concern

Ampersand68~4Y

I think if you're going to give Dayvha an instrument as a weapon, you might as well go all-in, especially since you have pre-established concepts like concords and discords which could easily be given a musical bent. Nytksy's shield could for example be turned into a bass (which does solve the rather awkward problem of how he attacks with it), Steele (or whatever his analogue would be called) could use a suitably "manly" instrument, perhaps a bugle or even a shofar? Alternatively, a percussive instrument one strikes with powerful blows, such as a snare drum or frame drum.

As for Dayvha's weapon, I'm not sure if the concept of "musical weapon" really carries through that well, nor the "devilish" aspect. I think a giant tuning (pitch)fork would have a better effect, perhaps struck in a similar way to the Dhantal [LINK], which coincidentally originates from India.

As for being down about sales, don't get so down just yet. As you said, you haven't even tried to advertise and yet you've managed several hundred sales just via word of mouth! It's better to view this as a learning experience than as the your only ticket to success. It's better to work out the kinks with a test run before jumping into an ambitious project. And who knows, with the Steam Summer Sale coming up, you might get a few more copies sold yet.

I definitely agree that you should take some time off for yourself, play games, get inspired, and try to learn more about why certain indie titles succeed. I feel like once you actually play certain games, they'll become demystified and less of this looming unattainable goal. Though if you're really feeling self-conscious, you could always hit up itch.io, which is home to a whole bunch of indie games of varying levels of success, and has much more of a "community" feel to it than a corporate storefront like Steam. They're also holding a sale right now of over 1500 games for just 5 dollars. Yes, five dollars! That money also goes to a good cause, as well. [LINK]

As for Dayvha's weapon, I'm not sure if the concept of "musical weapon" really carries through that well, nor the "devilish" aspect. I think a giant tuning (pitch)fork would have a better effect, perhaps struck in a similar way to the Dhantal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhantal, which coincidentally originates from India.

As for being down about sales, don't get so down just yet. As you said, you haven't even tried to advertise and yet you've managed several hundred sales just via word of mouth! It's better to view this as a learning experience than as the your only ticket to success. It's better to work out the kinks with a test run before jumping into an ambitious project. And who knows, with the Steam Summer Sale coming up, you might get a few more copies sold yet.

I definitely agree that you should take some time off for yourself, play games, get inspired, and try to learn more about why certain indie titles succeed. I feel like once you actually play certain games, they'll become demystified and less of this looming unattainable goal. Though if you're really feeling self-conscious, you could always hit up itch.io, which is home to a whole bunch of indie games of varying levels of success, and has much more of a "community" feel to it than a corporate storefront like Steam. They're also holding a sale right now of over 1500 games for just 5 dollars. Yes, five dollars! That money also goes to a good cause, as well. https://itch.io/b/520/bundle-for-racial-justice-and-equality

Tobias 1115~4Y

I like the 'resonars' idea because they're both a pair of swords and a violin (I suppose you'd have to see it animated to have a clear idea of what I have in mind); the fiddle is traditionally associated with the devil (google 'devil fiddle'), so it's doubly fitting. I started with more violin-like designs - for example, a thin blade in one hand and a thick club with strings in the other - but it eventually developed into this design that I'm really happy with. It'd be good from a gameplay standpoint, too, as it'd mean you could equip resonars to both hands, allowing you to choose any two you liked (like if MARDEK could equip an Earth sword in one hand and the Water one in the other).

Nytsky could use a cymbal - or two - which resembles a shield, and which could be percussively used for the very simple buff 'spells' that he uses. It also sounds like 'symbol', which is (very) vaguely related to his whole identity/mask schtick. Some characters (eg Steele) wouldn't use magic so they wouldn't have instruments.

Hmm, when does the summer sale start? I think I need to manually set a discount for that. Perhaps I'll run a Sindrel Song discount then too. With so much competition, though, I wonder if they'll even get noticed.

I bought that thing on itch.io a few days ago! It seemed a good way to at least investigate some of the competition, and I specifically intend to play Celeste, since it's one of the things I've been avoiding and it's included in that.

I like the 'resonars' idea because they're both a pair of swords /and/ a violin (I suppose you'd have to see it animated to have a clear idea of what I have in mind); the fiddle is traditionally associated with the devil (google 'devil fiddle'), so it's doubly fitting. I started with more violin-like designs - for example, a thin blade in one hand and a thick club with strings in the other - but it eventually developed into this design that I'm really happy with. It'd be good from a gameplay standpoint, too, as it'd mean you could equip resonars to both hands, allowing you to choose any two you liked (like if MARDEK could equip an Earth sword in one hand and the Water one in the other).

Nytsky could use a /cymbal/ - or two - which resembles a shield, and which could be percussively used for the very simple buff 'spells' that he uses. It also sounds like 'symbol', which is (very) vaguely related to his whole identity/mask schtick. Some characters (eg Steele) wouldn't use magic so they wouldn't have instruments.

Hmm, when does the summer sale start? I think I need to manually set a discount for that. Perhaps I'll run a Sindrel Song discount then too. With so much competition, though, I wonder if they'll even get noticed.

I bought that thing on itch.io a few days ago! It seemed a good way to at least investigate some of /the competition/, and I specifically intend to play Celeste, since it's one of the things I've been avoiding and it's included in that.

Ampersand68~4Y

I guess I'll have to see (and hear!) them in 3-D and in action to fully judge whether the resonars are a good fit. I just can't help feeling like putting one against your neck like a fiddle would result in you bleeding out in a messy fashion, though, and I'm just not feeling it working with floral theme. That's just my personal opinion, and again, seeing it in 3-D might be more illuminating.

Cymbal(s) for Nytsky is an interesting idea, though I don't know if it fits well musically with his character- he seems more somber, dolorous. Which is why I thought plucking at the strings of a bass would be fitting. It has such a nice rich, dark texture to its sound (and is also a totally hipster musical instrument). [LINK] Plus, the flute and bass go really well together, as seen in this video: [LINK] Musical compatibility should probably also be a consideration when picking what each character uses (I can't see cymbals and flute getting along at all to be quite honest).

The reason I thought an instrument would be appropriate for Steele was partly because he's also a Cherub, and Cherubs are generally associated with musical instruments. I thought it'd make sense for -that organization in particular- to have that instruments-as-weapons motif. Though seeing as he's non-magical, I guess it makes sense he'd let his "fists do the talking". Does feel slightly off-balance for three of the four Cherubim to be using instruments, though that might work for thematic reasons.

EDIT: Ah, forgot to tell you about the next Steam sale! whenisthenextsteamsale.com has guesses as to when the next sale is, and they're usually pretty accurate. According to the site, the Summer Sale should be on Jun 24.

Cymbal(s) for Nytsky is an interesting idea, though I don't know if it fits well musically with his character- he seems more somber, dolorous. Which is why I thought plucking at the strings of a bass would be fitting. It has such a nice rich, dark texture to its sound (and is also a totally hipster musical instrument). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyUZh_Cbw6Q Plus, the flute and bass go really well together, as seen in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmyK9_W8_J0 Musical compatibility should probably also be a consideration when picking what each character uses (I can't see cymbals and flute getting along at all to be quite honest).

The reason I thought an instrument would be appropriate for Steele was partly because he's also a Cherub, and Cherubs are generally associated with musical instruments. I thought it'd make sense for -that organization in particular- to have that instruments-as-weapons motif. Though seeing as he's non-magical, I guess it makes sense he'd let his "fists do the talking". Does feel slightly off-balance for three of the four Cherubim to be using instruments, though that might work for thematic reasons.

EDIT: Ah, forgot to tell you about the next Steam sale! whenisthenextsteamsale.com has guesses as to when the next sale is, and they're usually pretty accurate. According to the site, the Summer Sale should be on Jun 24.

Tobias 1115~4Y

I thought about the stupidity of resting a sharp blade on his shoulder, but I imagine the resonars more like fencing foils in that they're not actually bladed. They're ~magical crystals~ though which are particularly effective at slashing through miasma. You could ask how they damage people too, on the rare occasions you'd fight living people, but I suppose it's like asking how some other JRPG character can inflict as much damage as their shotgun-wielding ally with a paper fan or a megaphone.

It's more important in my opinion that Nytsky has an obvious shield, and he's not a spellcaster, though he is capable of casting some basic buffs. I thought a cymbal would allow for simple percussion rhythms which should be enough to cast those spells, whereas a more elaborate instrument would suggest more elaborate spellcasting. I also want him to have physical attacks, so I was wondering whether to give him a katana due to the whole 'nice guy' in his other hand stereotype. Maybe he'd bang that against the cymbal to create his simple 'music'.

It's weird that Steam doesn't even announce when its own sales are going to be on! Do you know how much of a percentage games normally have as a discount during this summer sale, or does it seem to be all over the place?

It's more important in my opinion that Nytsky has an obvious shield, and he's not a spellcaster, though he is capable of casting some basic buffs. I thought a cymbal would allow for simple percussion rhythms which should be enough to cast those spells, whereas a more elaborate instrument would suggest more elaborate spellcasting. I also want him to have physical attacks, so I was wondering whether to give him a katana due to the whole 'nice guy' in his other hand stereotype. Maybe he'd bang that against the cymbal to create his simple 'music'.

It's weird that Steam doesn't even announce when its own sales are going to be on! Do you know how much of a percentage games normally have as a discount during this summer sale, or does it seem to be all over the place?

Ampersand68~4Y

Having Nytsky use a katana might fall into the danger of the game seeming more "generic", and feels a tad dated. Him being a massive fanboy of Savitr, you might try finding inspiration from there. Thinking it over, if it's only "basic buffs" that he has to do, an explicit instrument may not be necessary- just banging his shield normally to a beat could be all that's needed. As for a weapon, rather than a sword, perhaps a type of club, in emulation of Savitr? Personally I like the silhouette of the gunstock war club and Australian aboriginal clubs/boomerangs [LINK] [LINK]

Re: Steam Sales- Newly released games generally don't have steep price cuts, but then again, that's usually because they anticipate a decent amount of residual sales from launch. Small indie games go for as much as 90% off, which does help draw attention from people looking for the steepest discounts, though I wouldn't recommend it so soon. You could try making it 10% off again, or go for 15-20% instead in order to get more attention, though at that percentage maybe having it be on sale at all is what makes it stand out the most, rather than the discount. I honestly don't know, so it's probably best to use your own discretion.

Re: Steam Sales- Newly released games generally don't have steep price cuts, but then again, that's usually because they anticipate a decent amount of residual sales from launch. Small indie games go for as much as 90% off, which does help draw attention from people looking for the steepest discounts, though I wouldn't recommend it so soon. You could try making it 10% off again, or go for 15-20% instead in order to get more attention, though at that percentage maybe having it be on sale at all is what makes it stand out the most, rather than the discount. I honestly don't know, so it's probably best to use your own discretion.

swatllama15~4Y

Being open about money - how much were you actually making at the peak of your flash career? I suppose that would've been when the MARDEK remakes came out. In the US, it's pretty common for entry level programmers who do much, much less than you to net 60k+ a year.

Look into what the Epic Battle Fantasy guy made from steam, and how he approached marketing. I don't know him, and I don't really like those games (yours are way better), but I think he's doing very well for himself. Not a lot of people knew about MARDEK on steam, I take it, since most of the buyers were probably the people who followed this blog. If you can get a bigger audience through twitter, reddit, whatever - I don't really know how to market - then I'm sure you'll see many multiples of mardek's sales.

Tobias 1115~4Y

I earned essentially nothing making Flash games because they were released for free. I probably earned somewhere between $10k and $20k during my years as a Flash dev. It seems unfair that people get paid more for doing way less, but that's how it goes when you're trying to do everything yourself.

I think with Matt Roszak, the biggest things he has going for him are the fact that he's been continuing on with this same series for years, so he's got a devoted following (like if I'd continued making MARDEK chapters), plus he seems to release them both as free browser versions and paid Steam versions. This reliable reputation has given him a close connection with Kongregate, too, it seems; when I checked that site the other day, I saw a big "EBF 5 IS OUT" thing straight away. Makes sense since most people have moved on from Flash and Kongregate but he's still going with it.

I'm not sure how to market either, that's the whole issue I'm currently facing.

Dingding32167~4Y

Hi Tobias, i might comment more specifically later on but for now I just wanted to link you to another developer who's in a similar stage and is actually in a very similar situation of having made a really big free flash game which is the basis of their now pre-launch game. Phone propia and MARDEK are probably the largest and highest quality games Ive played for free these last decade of my life! I just found their blog on [LINK] and I'm not sure how many people develop it but my feeling is very small (1?), maybe a few more as support. It would be really good if you could reach out and share your experiences to help both of you going forward and just brainstorming to see if your perspectives are similar on releasing an indie game as a solo dev! Especially one that hasn't really "made it" yet.

Sorry for not responding directly to the post but I thought I'd let you know about it somehow before I forget about it, as it seems like a useful contact to have!

Mitten_O1~4Y

I wanted to post some thoughts on the series things.

The momentum effect is very real, but so is the fall-off effect. Sometimes audiences fall out, sometimes they grow and grow. I think even the Harry Potter books started really gathering steam only by the third one, or something.

I believe the entertainment industry as a whole is nowadays approaching this problem by transitioning from stories to IP:s. You don't need to have seen any Marvel movies to enjoy any one of them (except maybe Infinity Wars), but at the same time they gain full benefits of the momentum effect.

This has proven to be extremely successful also in video games. Look at the most successful RPG series of all time: Final Fantasy. It is an extreme form of this, where there is no story connection between the games, but there is a set of similarities that has created a following. But this has worked for far more story based games. For example, every subsequent Mass Effect sold better than the last one.

For this to work, it must be possible for people to come aboard at any point. And it must be made clear in the marketing that this is the case. You can and should outright say it in the description, and definitely call the thing a sequel, not an episode.

But how to make it true? How to split your intertwined epic such that it is satisfying to jump in two thirds in? Well, this is something that just requires you to be a good author. And you are one. Study how some book series you like does it.

I think the main point is to make sure you give the audience a reason to care about the characters at the beginning of each part. If the audience cares about the characters, they will usually be prepared to be extremely confused/ignorant about the world as a whole. Light and subtle recapping should be enough on top of that, not really more than is required to remind the existing audience after a year from the time they played the previous one. The rest will be naturally implied by the continuation of the story. A well built world and characters will always have had a bunch of stuff happen to them before the start of the story, anyways.

I think having each episode end in a satisfying manner is more of a challenge, and you were planning to do that anyway.

And I guess that the second piece of advice one could derive from this phenomenon is that if you end up doing a bunch of random smaller games to have fun with technical challenges, it would be great if you could set them in a shared universe to one extent or another and reflect that in the naming scheme. That will gather momentum as well.

But yes, also the short prequel is a smart idea in light of all of this.

I wanted to post some thoughts on the series things.

The momentum effect is very real, but so is the fall-off effect. Sometimes audiences fall out, sometimes they grow and grow. I think even the Harry Potter books started really gathering steam only by the third one, or something.

I believe the entertainment industry as a whole is nowadays approaching this problem by transitioning from stories to IP:s. You don't need to have seen any Marvel movies to enjoy any one of them (except maybe Infinity Wars), but at the same time they gain full benefits of the momentum effect.

This has proven to be extremely successful also in video games. Look at the most successful RPG series of all time: Final Fantasy. It is an extreme form of this, where there is no story connection between the games, but there is a set of similarities that has created a following. But this has worked for far more story based games. For example, every subsequent Mass Effect sold better than the last one.

For this to work, it must be possible for people to come aboard at any point. And it must be made clear in the marketing that this is the case. You can and should outright say it in the description, and definitely call the thing a sequel, not an episode.

But how to make it true? How to split your intertwined epic such that it is satisfying to jump in two thirds in? Well, this is something that just requires you to be a good author. And you are one. Study how some book series you like does it.

I think the main point is to make sure you give the audience a reason to care about the characters at the beginning of each part. If the audience cares about the characters, they will usually be prepared to be extremely confused/ignorant about the world as a whole. Light and subtle recapping should be enough on top of that, not really more than is required to remind the existing audience after a year from the time they played the previous one. The rest will be naturally implied by the continuation of the story. A well built world and characters will always have had a bunch of stuff happen to them before the start of the story, anyways.

I think having each episode end in a satisfying manner is more of a challenge, and you were planning to do that anyway.

And I guess that the second piece of advice one could derive from this phenomenon is that if you end up doing a bunch of random smaller games to have fun with technical challenges, it would be great if you could set them in a shared universe to one extent or another and reflect that in the naming scheme. That will gather momentum as well.

But yes, also the short prequel is a smart idea in light of all of this.