I've been coding some dialogue stuff this week! Here are some videos. Also some thoughts about characters' first impressions.
(I used to post these on Saturdays, but I'm writing them on Sundays now!)
Atonal Dreams uses a conversation system I've had since Belief late last year, I think? Something like that. It has these little scenes with full character models which emote much more variably than the standard fixed-speaker-portrait-in-a-dialogue-window thing I still see in a lot of indie games. I'm quite proud of it!
The code behind it didn't allow for selecting between branched options, though, so I added that this week, as you can see in this video:
I've planned the game's plot, but I haven't written any of the actual script yet. I've yet to devote time to fully figuring out the characters. So none of these lines for Collie here are final, and I've got the impression that they're not very appealing. Hmm.
I need to give some thought to how best to portray her in a way that's charming to people rather than off-putting. What I'm trying to do with her is have her represent the physical, pragmatic, the R(eal) rune, compared to other characters like Savitr who represent the abstract, the otherworldly, the cerebral and/or spiritual, the A(bstract) rune. As such, she's very body focused, which manifests in the sexualisation of her crush on Savitr, which also helps to characterise him through the way he handles that, plus she has a dog motif for the silliness and because she's effectively a tamed member of the Blight Wolves, she grew up 'wild' but is trying to be tame which is what the correcting-her-own-inappropriate-comments thing is...
And so on. There's a lot I've got planned for her psychology, her story role, and her place in the game's world, which I hope would be satisfying to experience... in its entirety. But obviously people can't see that from minute-long out-of-context clips, can they?
I recently finished my first playthrough of Undertale. It's been a mental challenge because of the perspective I've been coming from - a far-less-successful indie developer who's attempted to make similar games - which I talked about in the ∞ post I wrote about it ∞.
I've played through it once, but the impression I'm getting from people's comments on that post is that it's not fair to judge it based just on that; instead I need to replay it multiple times, explore and analyse every nook and cranny, and only then will I be able to really see what the game's all about!
And I can understand that, but it gets to me because it feels as if I'm being told I can't possibly form an accurate assessment based on several hours of gameplay, while at the same time it's perfectly okay to form an overall impression of Collie from just a few seconds of unrefined dialogue...
It's just how psychology works though, I suppose. I just need to think hard about how best to convey these characters, especially in their introductions. First impressions matter a lot. People wouldn't give this a chance in the same way they give Undertale a chance because of all the external factors at play.
Another thing I've been needing to get around to for ages is the intro to the game, where you battle against Pierce. I've finally got started on it! Here's what I've got so far:
As soon as you select an empty save slot, the game instantly begins a battle. No foreplay with scene-setting text or cinematic cutscenes or anything. The characters exchange a bit of dialogue which I hope succinctly introduces who they are and what the driving force of the story is in the first few seconds.
Writing such a scene is extremely challenging, though, and I imagine I'll return to this several times to refine it, especially as I come to better understand the characters as I write more of their dialogue. Based on past experience, there's usually a period of a few weeks where I'm still figuring out how characters think and talk, but eventually they click and writing their dialogue flows more naturally. At that point, the earlier dialogue I wrote for them feels off, but I can tell why and how to fix it, so it's valuable to go back and revise it. I'm still in that figuring-things-out stage.
I'll need to think about how to make Savitr and Pierce appealing right from the start too. Savitr's driven by guilt, and "please forgive us" is a subtle hint at that. Pierce maybe hopefully comes across as comically insane through his emoting if not the actual lines, but I feel some eccentric wording - something quotable - could work well, if I can think of such a thing. There's a lot that could be tweaked here.
There were a few things that needed coding to get this scene working. Conversations had to work in battle - using the same code classes as outside battle, but with some differences due to the positioning of the models - and I had to add things like a cinematic(ish) camera which I can freely position. Lots of behind-the-scenes stuff which took a while. I've still got work to do, too; the bit with Pierce summoning a monster is obviously a mess here (he's not got a casting animation so he uses Savitr's violin-playing one with his flute, the camera angles are wrong, the particle effect - which isn't the final one anyway - appears on his face for some weird reason rather than where the summoned monster spawns...).
(It also pauses briefly because I think my computer was doing a virus scan or something while recording; I tried like four recording attempts and it kept freezing in different spots, so I just thought bugger it, who actually cares, and used this one. What an exciting story.)
I also need to code it so that more dialogue can be triggered throughout the battle by different circumstances, so the whole thing essentially becomes an interactive cutscene rather than just beginning with one. I do like that the 'cutscene' transitions directly into battle though! (This is something I loved in the gym battles in Pokemon Sword/Shield.)
The way it works currently, characters can't change their pose emotively once they've drawn their weapons (other than the face, head, and neck), which is unfortunate since I'd like Pierce to wave his dagger around after he draws it (you can barely see it as it is). This will require some new animations and new code to support them, but I think it could add a lot so I'll probably at least try to add it.
Once that's all done, I'll have all the tools I need to finally start filling the game with meaningful content, and I'll (hopefully) be able to move on from this spot I've been stuck in for what feels like ages!
Oh, I also plan to give Pierce his own battle music - like Muriance had in MARDEK - though I'm still in the process of composing it. I'm thinking it could start with an anticipation segment which swells into the actual battle theme once the cutscene's over and you take control. That'll be a challenge. The battle track that plays in that video isn't final or appropriate.
(It amuses me how they look like they're pulling their weapons out of their bums. How else would the animation work though??)
I'll spend the next week on this Pierce battle/cinematic in-battle stuff, and hopefully at the end of the week I should have finished and can add what I have to Steam and do all the private probably-patrons alpha testing stuff I've been talking about for a while. Things tend to take longer than I expect though, so we'll see how it goes.
22 COMMENTS
Dingding32167~4Y
I just wanted to say that I love the way the conversation currently works, and the emoting certainly adds a lot of charm and tone! The initial dialogue works well enough to give people unfamiliar with the setting an idea of what's going on fairly well too, and I really like the camera angle, which gives it a lot more depth/ makes it feel more personal. I do think the 3D-ness is winning me over now! I didn't even really notice the summoning thing because I knew what was going to happen and my mind just filled in the blanks from there. Psychology!! I would say not to worry about it but I know you'd like to get everything *just right* so I won't bother. Great job so far though!
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Tobias 1115~4Y
Thank you! I've been working with 3D for so long now that I'd forgotten the objections to that from a while back (and it's odd thinking my old stuff was 2D), but I'm glad this is helping you see potential in it, as I do!
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Dingding32167~4Y
Could even just this initial battle be released as a demo? Should be enough to hook people in if done well!
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Tobias 1115~4Y
It'll probably be less than five minutes long, though I wonder whether that could be enough?? Maybe that'd spark interest but not scratch the itch so it'd be more effective than a longer demo? I wonder...
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mount201046~4Y
Hmm... I'm not sure if I like the "in-battle dialog mechanic" shown in the video - I know it's a long way to go and there's a lot to refine, but right now, it feels as if the characters are *static*? And they're staring off into space, instead of at each other, and the perspective changes makes seeing the entire picture confusing, especially if you don't know who the characters are yet... Overall it just feels *amateur* right now (no insult to your skills! - just offering honest feedback). And given that it's the introduction, it definitely should get the most attention of any part of the story!
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Tobias 1115~4Y
I can position the camera anywhere that I want, so it'd be possible to have all the characters in the shot at the same time. Because of the 'slots' they're standing on, though, it'd mean they'd either be side-on or over-the-shoulder shots, which I felt were worse than this. How to frame characters is an interesting problem, though, which different films etc solve in different ways; it doesn't seem to be uncommon to only show one character at a time and alternate between them. Perhaps I could experiment with some alternatives if this doesn't look right.
EDIT: Looking into this a bit more, it's apparently called a shot reverse shot, when alternating shots show characters looking at other offscreen characters and the viewer has to make the connection between them. I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to all this though and it might be worth looking into it; there are techniques like matching the eyeline which seem to help, but which I didn't do. I also wonder whether having an establishing shot of the whole group would help or not.
Cinematography basically a discipline in itself though, so we shouldn't set our expectations too high for what I'll be able to achieve!
Oh, also, I did have some vague intentions with how the characters are framed, though: Savitr's shot from a lower position as if looking up at him, like he's this holy figure, while Collie's lurking in the background, smaller. Pierce is looked down on, suggesting more of a pest than a threat.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
This scene is essentially meant as a tutorial much like that, yes! I'm not sure whether to make it super fourth-wall-breaking right from the start (or at all really), but we'll see how it goes!
I'd love for there to be seamless transitions between the field and this, but annoyingly the layout is so drastically different between them (a generated grid of tiles vs a fixed circular diorama model floating in a void) that it wouldn't be possible! I wondered whether to have all conversations switch to the battle arena instead of appearing at the bottom of the screen... though maybe that'd just feel weird and disruptive so I probably won't.
I like that the expressions read well enough for you to have made accurate inferences about their mental states! And that's a good idea for Pierce's weapon which I think I will steal! Or maybe I could use it as a chance to introduce his comically pathetic side by having him say something about how it's his only friend? That's an angle I can experiment with!
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MaxDes45~4Y
I really like how you set up the beginning! I'm curious though, do you plan on removing some of the battle mechanics for the beginning and then slowly introducing them over the game instead of using them all at once? I really like it when other games do that, and I feel like I'd prefer it here too since all the mechanics together would be overwhelming.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
That would make sense! I've been thinking that Savitr could use this opportunity to train Collie, so his skills are all disabled/unequipped other than maybe his taunt and healing. She has an attack, a taming spell, and a buff, so maybe all but the attack could be disabled for this battle? I could also introduce taming right at the start here - otherwise it'd be impossible to do a pure pacifist run if you're forced to kill monsters here - but I'm unsure whether that'd overcomplicate things or fit narratively.
Hmm, maybe something like... Savitr suggests killing the monster, she says she could tame it instead, he says "your choice", to introduce that idea at the start which will then carry on through the rest of the game? Something like that?
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MontyCallay101~4Y
I like the setup of the scene with Pierce! Feels very natural in terms of how it would flow in gameplay. The only thing I noticed is that on Collie's turn, the buttons in the - action menu? - are placed all around the screen, which makes it difficult to focus on them when everything is rotating at the same time. And there's Collie's icon blinking in the middle of it all! I could imagine it looking nicer (and perhaps being easier to understand) if it was a more linear menu. Of course, that's just me guessing though!
In terms of Collie’s dialogue, it still feels a bit off-putting (though I like Savitr’s bemused reaction). I’m not sure if I should write much more about her, since you’re aware of what people’s reactions to that character have been. You tend to write characters with exaggerated personalities, and a lot of the time that makes the characters more interesting and endearing! And folks do like cute animal people! But the combination of that with constant - well, horniness - is something to get used to.
If it works in the end, perhaps time will tell! I’m looking forward to how you can make the character more fleshed out/nuanced in a demo or more “Divine Scenes”. I do admire you sticking to your vision, and I think that’s one of the strong points the game will have in the end.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
This UI has evolved from what started as a basic linear menu many months ago. I like this because it means that the 'distance travelled' to reach any option is the same, since you access them by tilting the control stick (then pressing a button). Personally I don't find it cluttered since your eyes are meant to be on it when it appears anyway, but obviously I'm biased because I'm so familiar with it. It'll be valuable to see how other people feel about it during testing.
The aversion to the 'horniness' seems so strange to me considering the people making those comments also liked MARDEK, which was full of that, quite crudely too! Keeps making me wonder whether there's just been some cultural shift, or if it's a maturity/age thing, or something. It's been making me really doubt my ability to write appealing characters lately.
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purplerabbits148~4Y
I think that the "horniness" issue is probably both a cultural shift, and maturity thing. Looking at the world post #MeToo puts a spotlight on the aspect of sex harassment.
I've also noticed that the amount of sex jokes tend to decrease once guys near the end of their Uni days, So I'm taking a guess that the current few of us are over the age of 22. The peak of crude sex jokes was between 14-18, about American middle school to American Highschool. Sex jokes dont go away, but as people get older they become more sophisticated, so there's less of the crude ones and more stealthy ones.
I did find the mermaid bookshelf one if the funniest thing ever, but I played it knowing the game was already 5 years old and that type of humor is to be expected. In current day, I looked back and had a small smile from remembering how funny it was at the time, but none of the guffaws of the past.
There's also the aspect that Mardek was clearly a parody so the jokes written play well into it. While, Atonal Dreams seems a bit to early to judge in my opinion, but with the lack of context , it seems to be a bit serious so the jokes don't quite flow as well as in the past games.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
I suppose I'm inspired by the (British) comedy I watch, which I've probably talked about before. Those are full of people decades older than me who make constant sex jokes!
I'd been wondering whether it was a cultural thing, though this video was randomly recommended to me yesterday, in which an American guy talks about how bad a US adaptation of a British comedy show was: [LINK]
The 'comedy' a couple of contestants on the US version used was absolutely repulsive to me. Urgh. But it also seemed sexually-rooted too, kind of. More on the nose than the UK comedy, even; while the UK comedians often use sexual innuendo (the cleverer it is, the more their colleagues seem to enjoy it), this awful woman was just screaming at people to suck her nonexistent man sausage. And that's comedy, apparently?
I suppose it's all subjective, at the end of the day. What I'm intending with Collie is more like 'sexual undertones' or innuendo rather than overt references to body parts or sex acts. But maybe I should just try to stress the admiration angle more than the lust one. It's possible to be a fangirl without being sexual about it.
Though I do wonder whether the wider audience would be more receptive to sexual silliness than the small community who's been here for years. Something I've been wondering a lot is how old most indie game players are likely to be. I see some on Twitter around my age, but maybe most are around the age I was when I made MARDEK? The FNAF guy was in his forties though! (And do I feel happy being 32 and making a silly fantasy JRPG with sex jokes? That's something that's been on my mind a lot too.)
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purplerabbits148~4Y
I have seen some British stuff and there's a very careful line that they toe for the sexual humor.
Whatever version of crude sex humor for that American version was not funny to me, Seems more for shock(?) humor??? Its a bit too crude for me.
During my sudy abroad to the UK, I remember watching an ad for (an energy drink?) where the husband and wife were discussing baby names and everytime the wife brings up the name Fanny the camera zooms in to the husband's a look of horror, then relief for a different name , then back to horror since the wife mentions a long family lineage of Fanny's. Thia one I found funny because it had the slight wink at the audience knowing that Fanny is a normal female name, while also meaning something else of a female anatomy.
Theres also the subtle moments in the comedy movie Airplane with a running gag that one female passeger would say to a bunch of random male passengers and a horse that she doesnt want to die a virgin.
So yeah the jokes need a bit of thought for them to be funny. Clearly British sex humor works better than American sex humor in my opinion.
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Ampersand68~4Y
I think a problem in Collie's characterization is that the way she acts isn't very [R]ealistic. I'd say a head-over-heels fangirl is very much thinking in the [A]bstract, even if they're lusting after the physical body of another. Pop stars are called -idols- for a reason. Not to say that passion doesn't come from a concrete place, but obsession is as much or more about the fantasy you construct in your mind.
I think if you're going to go down the route of a sexually aggressive sidekick, if she's supposed to be [R]ealistic, it makes more sense for her to engage in rude innuendo rather than fawning over her master- perhaps something like insulting Pierce's tiny blade while commenting hers is bigger. I'm sure you can think up a better joke than this, but that kind of bawdy, "laddish" humor, rather than the humor being derived from cringing at her fangirliness.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
That's an interesting way of seeing the A/R contrast! I'd see it more like the difference between someone idolising Kierkegaard or Tesla for their genius and trying to understand every detail of their creations (A), vs wanking to a topless poster of Cory Boyband while imagining what it'd be held in his studly, man-perfumed embrace (R). Or something. The runes would be incredibly restrictive if the entire domain of imagination was held by just one!
Collie was raised by the Blight Wolves, who embraced anarchic revelry in defiance of the religious stuffiness that dominated "proper" society, but it was a tough and unpleasant time for her. Savitr was the one who saved her from it when she was a hormonal teenager with no strong male figures in her life. He's a celebrity who's also her literal hero in a real sense. And now she's training him! Ohmygod!!
So it makes sense to me that someone in that position would develop a lustful attraction; it's not just a joke (though I'd hope there could be some comedy in it). The alternative seems like stifling it for cultural or political reasons or something, to me, and it feels unnatural or robotic.
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purplerabbits148~4Y
With Collie, I'm a bit confused. I dont know why, but in my mind she's a young adult, not a hormonal teenager.
I think it's a similar mental confusion, as trying to reconcile that cannonically Jessie and James from Pokemon are teenagers, but in my mind I still think they are older because I watched pokemon when I was much younger. So it's a weird thing to realize that I an older than them.
I think something to think about would be that when talking to people you look up to, if you talk to them with some regularly, you'll slowly be less star struck. The easiest example would be me still hanging around for so long, and I had that moment of OMG TOBIAS RESPONDED TO MY COMMENT. That OMG moment quickly faded within 5 comment responses, so to me it feels a bit strange that if Collie and Savitr have been associating long enough that Savitr is willing to train Collie, then the starstruckness should be fading. Unless Savitr rescued her more recently than I thought.
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Tobias 1115~4Y
Collie's 20, which is the age that people have to be to enter the Cherubim! She was rescued by Savitr years ago, though, during her teens, and he brought her back to the Seraphim who helped her find a new home, though he wasn't an active presence in her life. So she's had years to look up to him from afar.
I've been wondering whether I could make some of those Divine Scenes things showing this, a non-game prologue for this prologue to Divine Dreams, though it might be more satisfying to discover it through dialogue in the game? I'm unsure. Plus it's more work, of course.
Seems like a bunch of anime characters are way younger than they look! Jessie and James never seem like they're in their twenties to me, at least! I'm reminded of Shigeru Miyamoto saying Mario was in his mid-twenties. Seems so wrong to me!
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purplerabbits148~4Y
Alright that makes more sense. A period of time to allow for Collie to develop the admiration for Savitr.
Mario is in his mid 20's o~o Yeah something doesn't compute in my brain xD
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Tama_Yoshi82~4Y
Purplerabbit's comments about humor are interesting!
I talked about the social aspects of humor before, but I'm beginning to think there's an altogether different attitude that's "communicated" in most UK jokes, than say US jokes. The commercials Purplerabbit noted I found communicated a very specific kind of attitude of both A) acknowledging the awkwardness of sexual discussion, and B) acknowledging that this is something that people don't like to flaunt explicitly in their faces (we must be elegant when talking about it, hence why a lot of these jokes are very implicit and "nods" in direction of sex rather than outwardly discussing it).
I think the more "in your face" humor style I'd associate with Americans is more a communication of how unbriddled one can possibly get, so it often leads into increasingly explicit jokes, often putting other people or themselves on the spot.
I think it might play with the general "pro-freedom" culture they have, where "political correctness" is frowned upon, and therefore being overly crass, or insulting others can come off as a "relief" to this social pressure. I hate this kind of humor, and likewise don't find that political angle to make sense, but it's interesting to think of it this way, because it both makes sense of this brand of humor, and why I hate it!
I think it's worth noting that where I live (Quebec) our humor brand is well known for being very colloquial, and while different comedians will have different styles, the humor style often focuses around the aesthetic of the "scrappy" Quebecian style - halfway between a redneck and old-timer whose wrestling with new technologies - which is kind of our cultural brand. A lot of Quebec's sexual humor tends to point out what our relationship to sex is, rather than nodding at social conventions of it or using it as a social tool. It still involves making fun of the social awkwardness of it all (I recall sketches about vasectomies, and one about mamographies where the woman ended up fainting "hung by her breasts"), but sometimes it's more meta (one sketch involved the comedian having this weirdly meta-conversation where he tried to say the most amount of dominantly masculine sexual commentaries as a way to demonstrate that his critics were wrong about him not being able to do it; the result is odd since it's such a deliberate effort that it becomes less about him flaunting than it becomes a commentary about others flaunting in a similar way). That said, since the Quebec scene is very diverse, you'll have comedians that are more laid back, and others that are more in-your-face, so it's kind of a blend of other humor styles too!
In American Beauty there are a bunch of jokes that revolve around sex, but being a movie it's often more about how funny the characters' predicaments are, and how relatable/pety their fixations are. Nothing is "just" a joke in American Beauty; interestingly, the movie could be entirely non-funny and still "make sense", and the humor seems to arise "from" the situation rather than being inserted in after the fact (which is funny, because earlier drafts were decidedly less comedic).
I've also noticed that there's been a new kind of sex-positive humor that emerged out of lgbt spaces, which isn't surprising since a lot of people, especially trans people, regularly have to face their sexuality in excruciating details, either in ways that doesn't satisfy themselves, or in ways that others are dissatisfied by. The brand of humor in THESE spaces feel like another different way of using sex as humor: sex as affirmation. Sex isn't awkward anymore... or rather, it is, which is part of the comedic aspect, but there's this double-edged sword of it also being part of a positive affirmative aspect. Contrapoints uses this kind of humor in throves, and I've known other people in similar spaces to use this kind of humor (I recall one girl asking whether she should be apologizing for a comment she made, and a trans person responded "Say sorry to me" in this very funny sexually dominating tone) (I also unironically find funny Contrapoints' various bawdy jokes, such as the one in her video on men where she, for instance, talks about taking the red pill, and rubbing it on her cl** -- delivery is super important, and it's notably delivered in this over-the-top way that helps make the crassness digestible - which if you think about it also communicates the awkwardness of it).
A lot of this discussion comes back to the perception of humor in social interactions; obviously all of these (except for American Beauty) is examples of a humor delivered BY a comedian FOR its audience. When integrating humor in narratives, the social dynamics change since humor can come about despite an intent from the characters - similar to how The Room is infamously funny, despite being a very serious movie.
I think aspects worth looking into is how other comedic narratives effectively communicate the "divide" between a serious moment, and a funny moment, and how effectively these comedic effects can be woven in the situation without requiring a divide to be made. For some reason, I'm reminded of Hudsucker Proxy, which I think is a funny, highly pastiche movie where everything is "the joke", so there's no divide between comedy and narrative. Bojack Horseman on the other hand requires clear divides (usually in the form of physical animal-related humor or ludicrous verbosity, both of which can be easily abstracted away from the more severe emotional moments, even as they're happening). I think Undertale is also an interesting case study, since it has to divide the humor and action, but also chooses to rely heavily on humor, causing an "instability" between what is perceived as serious and humor, which allows the narrative to "randomly" shift from one to the other, in a sort of "you never know what to expect" way; I think this is not what you're looking for, so it's interesting to note that!
One rom-com I really like is the show Sex Education on Netflix. It has a rough first few episodes, but it's become my favorite show on Netflix, and it has this very nice balance between sexual humor (of all kinds really) and heart-to-heart moments. One character I really like is a hentai artist that's just the most hypersexual person; probably the closest to Collie, although unlike Collie she is very bold and confident in her sexuality. I feel like Collie would be closer to that scene in Eighth Grade where the girl half-knowingly says she can give good blowjobs to her crush, and it's just the most bizarre and awkward scene ever! The difference there would be opposite, though, since Collie is obviously *less* awkward than that! Makes me think Collie would either work if she was *more* or *less* awkward, but not with her current level of half-hearted awkwardness, which is aesthetically awkward, but functionally not? Does that make sense?
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Tama_Yoshi82~4Y
Oh no, how could I forget British Comedian Sasha Baron Cohen, and Borat's sequel! Very overtly sexual and in-your-face despite being a British Comedian! Obviously this throws a wrench in all of my analysis!
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