Alora Fane

Creators having breakdowns and turning on - or seeking to hide away from - their 'fans' seems to be a not-uncommon thing!

I saw this comic on Reddit this morning:

And immediately recognised it as Sinfest, one of the webcomics that was on the list I checked through every day back when that was a thing in my life (these days I only check Order of the Stick every few days; are webcomics a dead artform, or have I just got old?).

I recall it starting off fairly lewd, crude, and lowbrow, drawing humour from pimps and hos and the like - as a lot of content seemed to in the, what, mid 2000's? - but it underwent this drastic transformation into politics, specifically hardcore feminism - with the world being depicted as a Matrix-like Patriarchy, with all women being simultaneously weak and oppressed and strong and flawless, while all men were essentially exploitative predators driven by base urges - so it's not exactly shocking seeing that the creator's now turned his attention to what seems to be some kind of general LGBT - specifically trans - cultural critique, or whatever this is?

I looked into the comments a bit, where someone linked to ∞ this write-up about the creator's descent into madness over the years ∞, and how he "ended up with a tiny group of hardcore supporters through his increasingly transparent contempt for his audience".

It's a pattern that seems to repeat. I seem to recall the same happened with creators like Notch of Minecraft fame, and Andrew Hussie of Homestuck... and of course it happened to me, too (though obviously I'm not on the same level as any of these people).

That post describes how Sinfest's creator - Tatsuya Ishida - initially interacted with his community, but his content began to upset them, they took that frustration out on him, and he - like the coward he was!! - reacted to it by shutting down his forums and making a smaller one only for the spineless arse-kissers who agreed with him. He should have toughed it out in the battledome LIKE A MAN!! Or bent over to do everything the fans wanted, as if they're all in agreement anyway!

I know the post doesn't word it exactly like that, but this was the (probably warped, but based on many comments I'd actually received) impression I once got of how people were 'probably thinking' of my own running from my turned-toxic community to hide in smaller, invite-only ones for the few who wouldn't give me panic attacks when I woke up to their posts or site-hacking after every fitful night of headachey half-sleep.

People in the comments on that linked thread speculate that maybe it's isolation that does this to creators; they mention Notch as an example, gradually turning into some mouth-foaming QAnon nutjob as he sat in his cavernous mansion alone, presumably in a large, tall armchair in his underpants, swilling a glass of wine...

But based on personal experience, I just think it's a fairly natural end result of having the kind of sensitive temperament that generally accompanies creativity, and attracting the eyes and criticisms of many thousands of complete strangers, veiled by anonymity. Especially when both the creator and 'fans' are young, their minds not yet fully grown, and the enormous amount of attention they get is fairly sudden, and they have no practice or training to help them deal with it.

Typically we might have disagreements with a single individual, a friend, family member, or colleague, who we know to some extent. And they can grow stressful, but that stress is limited by the limited social scope of the situation. Most people just don't know what it's like to have many complete strangers directing their attention at them, one after the other, with no reprieve. It'd drive most people to some kind of madness, probably. Especially if you want to please them all, but also want to please yourself by following a personal vision, which is literally impossible when they're not in agreement.

(Though I also think I personally was especially poorly equipped to deal with any large scale social commitments, having come from a broken home that left me with a ton of other issues.)

I've spent the last few years mostly hiding away. I often think that I'd like to start up a new community around my Alora Fane games - I miss people appreciating how much effort I put into engaging with my community, unlike other creators they knew, and I miss just engaging with people, talking! - but I absolutely don't miss waking up stressed every day, afraid of what new mess I'd have to clean up, or having to gulp down several shots of (metaphorical) acid before the day had even begun.

I've talked about this a bunch of times over the years, so to those of you who've been reading this blog for a while - probably the only people who are left now - maybe I just sound like a broken record. I suppose things like this just remind me of it all, so I'm venting to get it off my mind.

And I know that my recent mental issues have been due to the fear of getting back into it. Like growing up with a horrendously abusive family, or being married to an abusive partner, and being told that, years after finding your way out, you'll need to go back to that in a bit. Maybe most people would FREAK OUT if in that position, or they'd look for ways out?

I'd like to think that maybe I've avoided becoming as... controversial as people like Tatsuya Ishida, at least in the sense of continuing to do it into the present, but... I know for certain at least some groups of people out there have talked about me very negatively - hoping for my suicide and the like - which is a difficult reality to acknowledge. But I mostly avoid even looking into any of it, and hope I'm so obscure that scripting vitriolic dissections of my myriad sins won't get enough clicks to be worth the effort, or whatever.

I keep worrying that if I start promoting myself, I'll be met with things like "hey, aren't you the guy who [insert terrible thing I've done or said here]?"... but I'm probably - hopefully - overestimating my impact, how many people were ever even aware I existed. It's probably only a few hundred people, and most of them have grown up... I hope.

But even on this tiny, out-of-the-way blog, I still get at least a couple of trolls posting venom every so often, reminding me of what I'm trying to escape.

So the idea of switching over to some mediocre, entirely-out-of-the-way life doing something relatively mundane in peaceful isolation appeals to me more and more... but the creative urge is strong, I know I have to make things or else I'd go mad, and then it feels such a shame that I can't share the joy I feel from my creations with anyone else...

Oh well. I've been fairly productive today, at least! Hopefully I can keep it up for the rest of the week too.

22 COMMENTS

Astreon152~2Y

hey, aren't you the guy who [promised us an octology and didn't even get past Mardek 3]?"

Sorry, i know the joke's old, but i couldn't resist it :)

Please don't take it to heart, i absolutely don't resent you for, well, anything at all.

Tobias 1115~2Y

I actually wouldn't mind if that was all people GOT UP IN MY GRILL about!

I'm more concerned with people literally torching my house after digging up those dozen or so incidents where I sexually violated entire litters of puppies so brutally they exploded.

Can't a man bang a bunch of baby beasts or two? Dozen? I mean it happened months ago, people should just LET ME MOVE ON! GEEZ!!

(I believe TV Tropes calls this 'Refuge in Audacity'.)

Spectre35~2Y

>I keep worrying that if I start promoting myself, I'll be met with things like "hey, aren't you the guy who [insert terrible thing I've done or said here]?"

Yeah, these things are scary. Once the label is attached, you can't seem to shake them off forever. I revisited the Xbox One always-on fiasco recently and found out netizens still shit on Adam "dealwithit" Orth and Don Mattrick occasionally.

Be very careful of what you say on the Internet when you're famous and delete all your comments on social media that can be traced back to you. Oh and avoid Twitter.

Comment awaiting approval

Maniafig222~2Y

Ugh, what a gross comic. This "LGBT is a cloak to facilitate child grooming" bullshit is just the latest repulsive retread of the 20th century "the gays are pedophiles" scare. It's disheartening to see how much society seems to have regressed on this recently. I can only hope it's the dying croak of this idiotic brand of bigotry. This kind of stuff gets me personally riled up.

I vaguely remember Sinfest from way back when it was going through that weird slant into dumb radical fauxminism lacking in any proper understanding or nuance, so to see it devolve into this garbage is both surprising yet not altogether unexpected. I'd seen other stuff by this same creator, though I didn't connect it was from the same person until this blog. All of it was equally abhorrent. Talk about an artistic downgrade, now it's just another shitty comic with awful politics in a conga line of shitty comics with awful politics. There's so many of those out there now.

This is what happens to a lot of these supposed radical feminists, their idea of feminism was always incredibly shallow and lacked any understanding of intersectionality, how these different systems of oppression fit together into society or whatnot. That's how you get these deep-as-a-puddle "women good, men bad" takes, and a complete lack of understanding of how this relates to other things like race, physical and mental disabilities, LGBT, social and economic class and whatnot.

I'm not sure what happened with Andrew Hussie, as far as I know it's not like the other people listed in the blog. I think Homestuck is still chugging along, the loss of goodwill towards HS was not by rancid politics but by general mismanagement and creative differences.

AFAIK based on what this post said what happened with Sinfest is that it got super preachy, and a lot of people didn't like that. And, well, if someone's gonna outright preach using their art then they should be ready to face criticism from those who disagree with the message. Though there's no doubt also just general internet dickheadery in there and whatnot.

But for a comic creator to both distance himself from his fandom, but also directly put the same fandom in his comics is just not sensible, right? It'd be like if you immortalized the trolls from Fig Hunter in MARDEK 4 as bosses to fight, that wouldn't make sense!

Even though I was around for much of this FH drama, I don't even remember what sparked it all in particular. I suppose it was just a bunch of stuff piling up. A continuous flow of drips will eventually overflow any bucket when there's no way to get all that water out. I can't say I personally think you made the wrong choice to do as you did, being that I myself was on a lot of these sites. They were cozy, while they lasted.

I was quite curious myself what did happen with Notch, so a quick look at his Wikipedia entry and the controversies within kinda said it all. He sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant person.

Which is where I think you are incorrect to project your own sensitivity on these people. To use the runes for a moment, you are very F, while these specific people are thoroughly T. They're vulgar, they don't care if what they say and do harms and upsets people. Where you'd write a manifesto explaining your thought processes and anxieties, they'd probably just react with insults and blame it all on the trendy wokism du jour.

But you are definitely right about how we as humans are not wired to interact with such large amounts of strangers. It's thoroughly unnatural for us, and something that's definitely a trained skill. But a basic level of empathy for others, well, that's something I believe does set you apart from these people.

You already have a community of patrons on Discord! I'm sure we'd all love to see you be more active there! The place is somewhat dead when you're not around, there's only so many times I want to ramble about whatever game I'm playing into an uncaring void!

First and foremost, anyone who posted awful bile about you and told you to kill yourself should be entirely ashamed of themselves. That's repugnant of them and they should reflect on horrible they've been.

I think you're very far from the controversy of people like Tastuya, Notch, or the maker of Cerberus, or Jowling Kowling Rowling or whatever the newest controversial figure is. I've yet to see you go to Twitter to write a diatribe about why Western Society is being undermined by a social and political minority, so that's good!

While you've had missteps in the past, I don't think they've ever been outright malicious, usually more misinformed than anything. I think you're emotionally intelligent enough to know when to stop digging, unlike these celebrities who clutch and vigorously plow their shovel as if digging were an Olympic sport.

I think you're also just not that notable. To get all these eyes on you as a figure of public scorn, the biggest criteria is that they need to be a continuous source of content. But that's not the case with you, you know well enough when to drop a topic, you don't post a new comic or video or hot twitter take on a weekly basis, and most of your blogs are pretty innocuous content updates or personal musings. There's just not much there to mine for content, I'm certain that if anyone did make a thread about you kit'd die from lack of interest quickly.

These content mining sites are some of the very worst of the worst corners of the internet by the way. Whole communities of people who make it their hobby to dig up dirt on others. They're more pathetic than all their subjects combined.

But as you say, no matter how small someone is, even a small audience will attract some trolls. There's nothing to do about that, sadly. I wish the internet was better than that, that it wasn't just the expected norm to have to deal with trolls. Alas.

I vaguely remember Sinfest from way back when it was going through that weird slant into dumb radical fauxminism lacking in any proper understanding or nuance, so to see it devolve into this garbage is both surprising yet not altogether unexpected. I'd seen other stuff by this same creator, though I didn't connect it was from the same person until this blog. All of it was equally abhorrent. Talk about an artistic downgrade, now it's just another shitty comic with awful politics in a conga line of shitty comics with awful politics. There's so many of those out there now.

This is what happens to a lot of these supposed radical feminists, their idea of feminism was always incredibly shallow and lacked any understanding of intersectionality, how these different systems of oppression fit together into society or whatnot. That's how you get these deep-as-a-puddle "women good, men bad" takes, and a complete lack of understanding of how this relates to other things like race, physical and mental disabilities, LGBT, social and economic class and whatnot.

I'm not sure what happened with Andrew Hussie, as far as I know it's not like the other people listed in the blog. I think Homestuck is still chugging along, the loss of goodwill  towards HS was not by rancid politics but by general mismanagement and creative differences.

AFAIK based on what this post said what happened with Sinfest is that it got super preachy, and a lot of people didn't like that. And, well, if someone's gonna outright preach using their art then they should be ready to face criticism from those who disagree with the message. Though there's no doubt also just general internet dickheadery in there and whatnot.

But for a comic creator to both distance himself from his fandom, but also directly put the same fandom in his comics is just not sensible, right? It'd be like if you immortalized the trolls from Fig Hunter in MARDEK 4 as bosses to fight, that wouldn't make sense!

Even though I was around for much of this FH drama, I don't even remember what sparked it all in particular. I suppose it was just a bunch of stuff piling up. A continuous flow of drips will eventually overflow any bucket when there's no way to get all that water out. I can't say I personally think you made the wrong choice to do as you did, being that I myself was on a lot of these sites. They were cozy, while they lasted.

I was quite curious myself what did happen with Notch, so a quick look at his Wikipedia entry and the controversies within kinda said it all. He sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant person.

Which is where I think you are incorrect to project your own sensitivity on these people. To use the runes for a moment, you are very F, while these specific people are thoroughly T. They're vulgar, they don't care if what they say and do harms and upsets people. Where you'd write a manifesto explaining your thought processes and anxieties, they'd probably just react with insults and blame it all on the trendy wokism du jour.

But you are definitely right about how we as humans are not wired to interact with such large amounts of strangers. It's thoroughly unnatural for us, and something that's definitely a trained skill. But a basic level of empathy for others, well, that's something I believe does set you apart from these people.

You already have a community of patrons on Discord! I'm sure we'd all love to see you be more active there! The place is somewhat dead when you're not around, there's only so many times I want to ramble about whatever game I'm playing into an uncaring void!

First and foremost, anyone who posted awful bile about you and told you to kill yourself should be entirely ashamed of themselves. That's repugnant of them and they should reflect on horrible they've been.

I think you're very far from the controversy of people like Tastuya, Notch, or the maker of Cerberus, or Jowling Kowling Rowling or whatever the newest controversial figure is. I've yet to see you go to Twitter to write a diatribe about why Western Society is being undermined by a social and political minority, so that's good!

While you've had missteps in the past, I don't think they've ever been outright malicious, usually more misinformed than anything. I think you're emotionally intelligent enough to know when to stop digging, unlike these celebrities who clutch and vigorously plow their shovel as if digging were an Olympic sport.

I think you're also just not that notable. To get all these eyes on you as a figure of public scorn, the biggest criteria is that they need to be a continuous source of content. But that's not the case with you, you know well enough when to drop a topic, you don't post a new comic or video or hot twitter take on a weekly basis, and most of your blogs are pretty innocuous content updates or personal musings. There's just not much there to mine for content, I'm certain that if anyone did make a thread about you kit'd die from lack of interest quickly.

These content mining sites are some of the very worst of the worst corners of the internet by the way. Whole communities of people who make it their hobby to dig up dirt on others. They're more pathetic than all their subjects combined.

But as you say, no matter how small someone is, even a small audience will attract some trolls. There's nothing to do about that, sadly. I wish the internet was better than that, that it wasn't just the expected norm to have to deal with trolls. Alas.

Tobias 1115~2Y

I vaguely recall wondering about what had come of Andrew Hussie a few months ago - maybe I saw a Reddit comment where someone spoke of him as if there'd been some big drama/meltdown? - and I very briefly looked into it, and found something that was more confusing than anything. "Why did people care so much about THAT?", I thought, and I started writing a blog post about some of my own thoughts about it...

...but stopped half way, thinking better of it, since it dealt with stuff that really should be in the domain of psychology but annoyingly seems to be treated more as political.

That's happened a few times over the past few months, where I've really been curious to write about certain topics, to see what other people here thought... though it seems like suicide. Attempts to do so in the past were met with dogpiling.

And it's a shame, because I see people like these as making these assertive declarations, about how things definitely are, or whatever, often in a mocking way, but I'm way more curious about writing from a psychological perspective; "this doesn't make sense to me, but how does it make sense to you, who have different experiences to me?"

I worry that it'd be interpreted as some kind of assertive declaration anyway, though... That not being wholeheartedly on one damn 'side' would mean for sure I was an ardent advocate of the opposite or something. And I don't want to be branded as some kind of somethingist or whateverphobe just for asking questions, not just because of any potential reputation damage, but because I don't want to offend people who care about my work!

The T/F difference that I used to be so obsessed with (in Myers-Briggs terms then, though I see it in terms of the Big Five now (agreeableness vs disagreeableness), which the T/F runes essentially represent) does seem to be a big factor in all this! Me being so F is a big reason I'm so guilt prone and upset by relatively minor things, why I try to assume the best of others, to understand why they might be saying what they are, and why I get so upset by being unable to please everyone... But maybe these other guys are indeed all HARD T TYPES and are openly belligerent without guilt or doubt? So alien to me...

A link in another comment to the Cerebus guy's deranged rantings is - to an almost comical degree - literally that, with him deriding the very concept of 'Feeling' versus the obviously far superior 'Thinking'! Which he apparently sees in terms of sex, with all women embodying feeling and all men thinking. Which is silly.

I'm wondering based on the reception to this post whether to finish and post one of the things I wanted to discuss anyway, to find out whether or not it's even that bad... though is it worth it? What good could come of it? Maybe I need to just keep keeping it to myself?

...but stopped half way, thinking better of it, since it dealt with stuff that really should be in the domain of psychology but annoyingly seems to be treated more as political.

That's happened a few times over the past few months, where I've really been curious to write about certain topics, to see what other people here thought... though it seems like suicide. Attempts to do so in the past were met with dogpiling.

And it's a shame, because I see people like these as making these /assertive declarations/, about how things /definitely are/, or whatever, often in a mocking way, but I'm way more curious about writing from a psychological perspective; "this doesn't make sense to me, but how does it make sense to you, who have different experiences to me?"

I worry that it'd be interpreted as some kind of assertive declaration anyway, though... That not being wholeheartedly on one damn 'side' would mean for sure I was an ardent advocate of the opposite or something. And I don't want to be branded as some kind of somethingist or whateverphobe just for asking questions, not just because of any potential reputation damage, but because I don't want to offend people who care about my work!

The T/F difference that I used to be so obsessed with (in Myers-Briggs terms then, though I see it in terms of the Big Five now (agreeableness vs disagreeableness), which the T/F runes essentially represent) does seem to be a big factor in all this! Me being so F is a big reason I'm so guilt prone and upset by relatively minor things, why I try to assume the best of others, to understand why they might be saying what they are, and why I get so upset by being unable to please everyone... But maybe these other guys are indeed all HARD T TYPES and are openly belligerent without guilt or doubt? So alien to me...

A link in another comment to the Cerebus guy's deranged rantings is - to an almost comical degree - literally that, with him deriding the very concept of 'Feeling' versus the obviously far superior 'Thinking'! Which he apparently sees in terms of sex, with all women embodying feeling and all men thinking. Which is silly.

I'm wondering based on the reception to this post whether to finish and post one of the things I wanted to discuss anyway, to find out whether or not it's even that bad... though is it worth it? What good could come of it? Maybe I need to just keep keeping it to myself?

Slarstorm1~2Y

It's funny, because as an aspiring creator myself I have had the exact thought process of looking at wildly successful artists and I have specifically thought to myself- "Man, if I ever get famous I really hope I don't end up like Andrew Hussie."

And while feel these concerns are perfectly valid, I also feel like they are ultimately self-sabotaging.

I personally find myself sensitive to criticism to my own detriment, to the point that I have barely dedicated any time to actually committing myself to refining my skills as a writer, to the point that I can't even really call myself an 'aspiring artist.'

I don't think you have to worry about ending up that way, though. It seems to me you're well aware of your own limitations, so I feel you are unlikely to become a victim of 'Fandom Ire.' Though to be fair, I couldn't blame anyone for turning into a raving lunatic if they were responsible for the Homestuck fandom. It's the most fragmented community I've ever interacted with.

I've occasionally visited your blog throughout my childhood and the worst I can say about you is that you find it difficult to commit to your creative pursuits. I'd be a raging hypocrite to hold that against you.

I think the best you can do is try to identify which criticisms come from a place of genuine appreciation for you as an artist, because that's what you put your art out for. To be interpreted. There's an irony in me saying this, but what people think of you personally should be of lower priority.

It's also entirely possible I am projecting what I feel to be my own personal shortcomings on to you and are wildly misinterpreting your feelings. Sorry if I've misunderstood you.

And while feel these concerns are perfectly valid, I also feel like they are ultimately self-sabotaging.

I personally find myself sensitive to criticism to my own detriment, to the point that I have barely dedicated any time to actually committing myself to refining my skills as a writer, to the point that I can't even really call myself an 'aspiring artist.'

I don't think you have to worry about ending up that way, though. It seems to me you're well aware of your own limitations, so I feel you are unlikely to become a victim of 'Fandom Ire.' Though to be fair, I couldn't blame anyone for turning into a raving lunatic if they were responsible for the Homestuck fandom. It's the most fragmented community I've ever interacted with.

I've occasionally visited your blog throughout my childhood and the worst I can say about you is that you find it difficult to commit to your creative pursuits. I'd be a raging hypocrite to hold that against you.

I think the best you can do is try to identify which criticisms come from a place of genuine appreciation for you as an artist, because that's what you put your art out for. To be interpreted. There's an irony in me saying this, but what people think of you personally should be of lower priority.

It's also entirely possible I am projecting what I feel to be my own personal shortcomings on to you and are wildly misinterpreting your feelings. Sorry if I've misunderstood you.

astralwolf92~2Y

Have you heard of KiwiFarms? There has been sporadic discussion of you: [LINK]

Tobias 1115~2Y

I don't know if you're posting this out of naivete or malice, but I've approved the comment because I suppose it shows I'm not worried about nothing?

I've wondered a few times over the years whether those lovely charmers have paid any attention to me - hoping I wasn't worth it - but I never wanted to look into it. I almost mentioned it in the post, but didn't want anyone else to do any digging either. I suppose this answers that, though.

I may be insane, but not enough to actually click the link.

Maniafig222~2Y

I'd hoped you saying how you're literally still traumatized by all that went down with FH would be enough for commenters to figure out that literally linking to that place would be a bad idea!

I do want to spare you the anxiety of being left in the dark on how much that link actually means, since I think you probably overestimate how bad this actually is: It's 2 comments in total posted 8 years in the past, all the way back in 2014. Nothing else since, complete radio silence.

The fact that you spent 8 years since in total ignorance about it speaks to how little this actually means, calling it "sporadic" is an understatement, it's more like what I said in my own comment, someone tried to start something and it got promptly got ignored by everybody else!

Tobias 1115~2Y

Well that's a relief!! I had expected something a bit worse. I've been aware of that site for ages and always assumed there'd be at least something about me - like maybe from people I wouldn't allow in the invite-only sites I made - but thought better of actually checking it out.

I've been linked to a couple of other things that seemed like at least some people out there saying horrible things about me, but I never checked those out either and hope they were similarly ignored...

As much as I can't say I love the thought of this being linked to at all, maybe it wasn't a bad thing if it's calmed some mild fears I've had for a while?

360K11~2Y

Hey, I'm the guy who made that Reddit post you read about Sinfest so it was kind of a surprise to see it here. Anyway, I just wanted to say that you shouldn't worry about the idea that you're like Tatsuya Ishida, or Notch, or whatever other person you worry that you're going to be seen as. As far as this part of what you said goes:
"That post describes how Sinfest's creator - Tatsuya Ishida - initially interacted with his community, but his content began to upset them, they took that frustration out on him, and he - like the coward he was!! - reacted to it by shutting down his forums and making a smaller one only for the spineless arse-kissers who agreed with him. He should have toughed it out in the battledome LIKE A MAN!! Or bent over to do everything the fans wanted, as if they're all in agreement anyway!"
I know that I described everything he did in a kind of sarcastic, mocking way, but there's genuinely nothing wrong with not wanting to engage with fans of your work. I didn't mean to imply that there was, or that creators need to interact constantly with their fans. The point of that part of the post was to set up what happened with Ishida later on, when he wrote critics into the comic as antagonists, became transphobic and homophobic, etcetera, etcetera.

And as for "ended up with a tiny group of hardcore supporters through his increasingly transparent contempt for his audience", I only phrased it in that (rather awkward) way so that I could describe him and Dave Sim, a guy with a kind-of-similar fall from grace, with the same sentence. In both cases, "contempt for his audience" doesn't mean just not interacting with them or refusing to bow down to their demands, it means that Ishida wrote characters into his comic representing specific fans he didn't like and Sim converted to his own religion, then put long walls of text in his comic calling his readers mind-controlled heretics and talking about how women don't have souls.

What Ishida did wrong wasn't his refusal to interact with his fans--in fact, if you're a creator of any form of media I'd recommend avoiding getting too close to your audience--it was all the stuff afterwards, where he started acting genuinely awful. And, well, you're not an awful person, Tobias. You're a good guy. Mardek was one of my favorite games as a kid and I still love it, and beyond the talent that went into it, that was because it felt honest and personal in a way that video games generally don't. You put a lot of yourself into those games and they stuck with me.

Anyway, I just wanted to stop by since it was so bizarre to see a link to my post on this blog--though I guess it's nice to see that people are still reading that post a year after I wrote it. (I actually did have someone I know IRL read one of my posts on her phone while we were talking, so I guess they still get linked to around the internet.) I didn't want you to think that what I said was targeted at you, or that your introversion and lack of public presence made you like Ishida. Thanks for all the memories of Mardek, and I'm looking forward to Atonal Dreams and whatever else you decide to make.

And as for "ended up with a tiny group of hardcore supporters through his increasingly transparent contempt for his audience", I only phrased it in that (rather awkward) way so that I could describe him and Dave Sim, a guy with a kind-of-similar fall from grace, with the same sentence. In both cases, "contempt for his audience" doesn't mean just not interacting with them or refusing to bow down to their demands, it means that Ishida wrote characters into his comic representing specific fans he didn't like and Sim converted to his own religion, then put long walls of text in his comic calling his readers mind-controlled heretics and talking about how women don't have souls.

What Ishida did wrong wasn't his refusal to interact with his fans--in fact, if you're a creator of any form of media I'd recommend avoiding getting too close to your audience--it was all the stuff afterwards, where he started acting genuinely awful. And, well, you're not an awful person, Tobias. You're a good guy. Mardek was one of my favorite games as a kid and I still love it, and beyond the talent that went into it, that was because it felt honest and personal in a way that video games generally don't. You put a lot of yourself into those games and they stuck with me.

Anyway, I just wanted to stop by since it was so bizarre to see a link to my post on this blog--though I guess it's nice to see that people are still reading that post a year after I wrote it. (I actually did have someone I know IRL read one of my posts on her phone while we were talking, so I guess they still get linked to around the internet.) I didn't want you to think that what I said was targeted at you, or that your introversion and lack of public presence made you like Ishida. Thanks for all the memories of Mardek, and I'm looking forward to Atonal Dreams and whatever else you decide to make.

Tobias 1115~2Y

Oh wow, bizarre indeed! I've linked to Reddit a few times on this blog, but there's never been this kind of overlap before! Small world, eh?

I thought your post was well-written, by the way, which is why I linked to it! My own mocking 'interpretation' was mostly a frustrated recounting of the kinds of things people actually did used to say to me, Back In The Day. I recall more than one time, telling someone that their brutal criticisms hurt, requesting they stop, only to be essentially told I should stop being a wimp and just grin and bear it. It's difficult dealing with a large volume of not exactly compassionate people (and any large group of people is statistically going to include a number of literal psychopaths).

I'm also personally very prone to guilt, though, and acknowledge that a lot of my community management during my younger years left a lot to be desired. I was basically tyrannical as an admin, adding all these rules and judgement systems - in the hope of encouraging us all to be the best people we could be - that people had good reason to get upset about! So I feel there are genuine mistakes people could bring up were I to try and get out there again, and which I still personally feel embarrassed about.

It sounds like I'm probably blowing things out of proportion though based on what you've said about the Sinfest and Cerebus guys! I only know the latter in passing from related TVTropes pages (most notably 'Cerebus Syndrome'), years ago; I've never read Cerebus. And I always got the impression Ishida was distant and lonely as his text updates were rare and brief, and his self insert character was never shown with other people. I never checked any Sinfest forums and generally don't engage with 'The Community' around anything (largely due to experiences with my own). And I barely know anything about Notch really!

Thanks for commenting, especially in a positive, reassuring way; it's valuable to hear that from someone who knows more about those other creators' downfalls and has at least some familiarity with me. Hopefully when I do try getting out there to promote Atonal Dreams etc, it won't go as badly as my past trauma might have me fearing.

Oh wow, bizarre indeed! I've linked to Reddit a few times on this blog, but there's never been this kind of overlap before! Small world, eh?

I thought your post was well-written, by the way, which is why I linked to it! My own mocking 'interpretation' was mostly a frustrated recounting of the kinds of things people actually did used to say to me, Back In The Day. I recall more than one time, telling someone that their brutal criticisms hurt, requesting they stop, only to be essentially told I should stop being a wimp and just grin and bear it. It's difficult dealing with a large volume of not exactly compassionate people (and any large group of people is statistically going to include a number of literal psychopaths).

I'm also personally very prone to guilt, though, and acknowledge that a lot of my community management during my younger years left a lot to be desired. I was basically tyrannical as an admin, adding all these rules and judgement systems - in the hope of encouraging us all to be the best people we could be - that people had good reason to get upset about! So I feel there are genuine mistakes people could bring up were I to try and get out there again, and which I still personally feel embarrassed about.

It sounds like I'm probably blowing things out of proportion though based on what you've said about the Sinfest and Cerebus guys! I only know the latter in passing from related TVTropes pages (most notably 'Cerebus Syndrome'), years ago; I've never read Cerebus. And I always got the impression Ishida was distant and lonely as his text updates were rare and brief, and his self insert character was never shown with other people. I never checked any Sinfest forums and generally don't engage with 'The Community' around anything (largely due to experiences with my own). And I barely know anything about Notch really!

Thanks for commenting, especially in a positive, reassuring way; it's valuable to hear that from someone who knows more about those other creators' downfalls and has at least some familiarity with me. Hopefully when I do try getting out there to promote Atonal Dreams etc, it won't go as badly as my past trauma might have me fearing.

360K11~2Y

Dave Sim is a weird case; if you're only familiar with him through the term "Cerebus Syndrome" and the fact that he's not particularly fondly remembered, it's easy to think that he ruined his reputation by making his work Too Serious rather than the lighthearted stuff his audience wanted. I know that in your case, the Mardek remakes weren't very successful and part of that was because they were less goofy and more philosophical than the originals, and so it might seem like your own work (and reputation) is kind of similar to Sim's.

The truth is, Cerebus actually became much more popular as it grew more serious. Sure, Dave Sim drove away some of his original fans by changing his style, but he also gained way more new ones and the fact that he's remembered at all is because of the more mature, better-written stuff he put out. What ruined his reputation was writing stuff like this: [LINK]

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, it's a long screed--originally published word-for-word and without images in what was supposedly a comic book--about how women are destroying the "Male Light" upon which civilization depends. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to write the most misogynistic thing in the world I would tell them to just go ahead and shoot me because Cerebus #186 already exists. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but it isn't. Dave Sim really, really hated women and it didn't get any better over the next hundred or so issues of his comic.

It's impossible to please everyone, of course, and there are always people who just want to get a reaction online, but in most cases where someone's reputation is ruined to this extent it's because they did or said something genuinely horrible. (This is the main thing Notch is infamous for: [LINK] )

I'm not just saying this to go "look at these weirdos", I'm also saying that you aren't going to have that level of infamy unless you're acting like that. I mean, maybe you've said stuff I don't know about, maybe you were serious about sexually assaulting puppies. But I kind of doubt it. I think that most people don't really have any opinion of you as a public figure, and those who do just love the games you put out twelve years ago. And being able to start from what is essentially a clean slate, with a small but devoted fanbase on top of that, is a good place to be.

The truth is, Cerebus actually became much more popular as it grew more serious. Sure, Dave Sim drove away some of his original fans by changing his style, but he also gained way more new ones and the fact that he's remembered at all is because of the more mature, better-written stuff he put out. What ruined his reputation was writing stuff like this: http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/sim.html

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, it's a long screed--originally published word-for-word and without images in what was supposedly a comic book--about how women are destroying the "Male Light" upon which civilization depends. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to write the most misogynistic thing in the world I would tell them to just go ahead and shoot me because Cerebus #186 already exists. I know that sounds like hyperbole, but it isn't. Dave Sim really, really hated women and it didn't get any better over the next hundred or so issues of his comic.

It's impossible to please everyone, of course, and there are always people who just want to get a reaction online, but in most cases where someone's reputation is ruined to this extent it's because they did or said something genuinely horrible. (This is the main thing Notch is infamous for: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDhRXnhXcAEySmo.jpg )

I'm not just saying this to go "look at these weirdos", I'm also saying that you aren't going to have that level of infamy unless you're acting like that. I mean, maybe you've said stuff I don't know about, maybe you were serious about sexually assaulting puppies. But I kind of doubt it. I think that most people don't really have any opinion of you as a public figure, and those who do just love the games you put out twelve years ago. And being able to start from what is essentially a clean slate, with a small but devoted fanbase on top of that, is a good place to be.

Tobias 1115~2Y

Oh, wow; that certainly puts some things into perspective! And it's so strange, too, because the stuff he's ranting about - male logic vs female emotion - is literally the opposite of the main conflict I had with my own community in the past.

I understood it in terms of the Myers-Briggs personality types back then, but since getting my psychology degree I see it in terms of one of the 'big five' personality traits that academics have identified (agreeableness). It's also a part of the mechanics of my newer games; the T/F rune difference, specifically.

Agreeableness is about valuing subjective feelings over objective fact, and typically females are more agreeable while males are less agreeable... but 'typically' doesn't mean 'always'. I'm male and I'm more agreeable - I'm a sensitive, arty pacifist - but I attracted a 90+% male audience, the majority of which were, well, more typically male in their temperaments. A lot of the clashes came from that, and I wrote a lot about this back then in the hope that people would understand I wasn't exactly as comfortable with conflict - or 'debates' - as they might have been.

My own 'feeling' nature is also what makes me especially prone to guilt, especially about failing to please people, as was the case back then.

I did actually incorporate this personality clash into some of my work, though I went in the direction of trying to stress the idea that 'we don't all respond to the same things in the same way, and it's important to consider the other's nature when interacting with them if we want to see positive results'. Atonal Dreams' mechanics revolve around this. And a character in Taming Dreams - my other ill-fated MARDEK revision - who was meant to represent the whole 'Thinking' approach was (I hope) depicted sympathetically.

Speaking of that game, I don't really even consider anything post-MARDEK as meaningful creative output at all! With Flash games like MARDEK, all you had to do was upload the files to a portal site, and the views rolled in with zero effort on your part because the barrier to entry was pretty much nonexistent. With games on mobiles or Steam or whatever - Taming Dreams was the former, and Atonal Dreams will be the latter - you have to do the promotion yourself, which I didn't understand back then, so I did none of it and the games failed primarily for that reason.

I'll have to do a lot of promotion for Atonal Dreams if I want to have any hope of it making any money, which means drawing a lot of eyes to me, which might be critical. Hence my recent fears about all this, and of my attempts drawing out comments like "Tobias Cornwall? Isn't he that guy who banged all those puppies?" or whatever that'd taint all further discussion!

Sorry about the maybe-irrelevant rambling, but actually talking about all this - rather than just stewing privately on the thoughts - has put some of those fears at least partly to rest, so thanks for your input!

I understood it in terms of the Myers-Briggs personality types back then, but since getting my psychology degree I see it in terms of one of the 'big five' personality traits that academics have identified (agreeableness). It's also a part of the mechanics of my newer games; the T/F rune difference, specifically.

Agreeableness is about valuing subjective feelings over objective fact, and typically females are more agreeable while males are less agreeable... but 'typically' doesn't mean 'always'. I'm male and I'm more agreeable - I'm a sensitive, arty pacifist - but I attracted a 90+% male audience, the majority of which were, well, more typically male in their temperaments. A lot of the clashes came from that, and I wrote a lot about this back then in the hope that people would understand I wasn't exactly as comfortable with conflict - or 'debates' - as they might have been.

My own 'feeling' nature is also what makes me especially prone to guilt, especially about failing to please people, as was the case back then.

I did actually incorporate this personality clash into some of my work, though I went in the direction of trying to stress the idea that 'we don't all respond to the same things in the same way, and it's important to consider the other's nature when interacting with them if we want to see positive results'. Atonal Dreams' mechanics revolve around this. And a character in Taming Dreams - my other ill-fated MARDEK revision - who was meant to represent the whole 'Thinking' approach was (I hope) depicted sympathetically.

Speaking of that game, I don't really even consider anything post-MARDEK as meaningful creative output at all! With Flash games like MARDEK, all you had to do was upload the files to a portal site, and the views rolled in with zero effort on your part because the barrier to entry was pretty much nonexistent. With games on mobiles or Steam or whatever - Taming Dreams was the former, and Atonal Dreams will be the latter - you have to do the promotion yourself, which I didn't understand back then, so I did none of it and the games failed primarily for that reason.

I'll have to do a lot of promotion for Atonal Dreams if I want to have any hope of it making any money, which means drawing a lot of eyes to me, which might be critical. Hence my recent fears about all this, and of my attempts drawing out comments like "Tobias Cornwall? Isn't he that guy who banged all those puppies?" or whatever that'd taint all further discussion!

Sorry about the maybe-irrelevant rambling, but actually talking about all this - rather than just stewing privately on the thoughts - has put some of those fears at least partly to rest, so thanks for your input!

360K11~2Y

Don't worry about rambling, I like talking about this stuff. I'm not really familiar with the Big Five beyond, y'know, a Wikipedia-summary sort of general knowledge. I'm definitely more of a thinking rather than feeling person, so it's an interesting way of thinking through that aspect of my own personality.

You talked in one of your other comments about seeing these sorts of things in political vs. psychological terms. I'd say that is mostly why I wrote those long Reddit posts about Cerebus and Sinfest; I had no knowledge of Sinfest before seeing someone else on that subreddit talk about it, and I only knew of Cerebus because I got curious about the term "Cerebus Syndrome". So I didn't have any sort of specific personal anger at them the way a fan of their previous work might, and while they're both pretty awful people, the internet is full of awful people if that was what I was looking for.

It was more about a question of "why would they do this" than "how dare they do this", more psychological than political like you said. Why would someone like Dave Sim, a genuinely talented creator whose work was widely seen as some of the best comics writing in history, suddenly turn into a borderline self-parody with no awareness of what he was talking about? Why did Tatsuya Ishida, whose comics were generally vaguely left-leaning but not really political at all, turn into a pretty far-right political cartoonist with no interest in his own characters except as political vehicles to attack LGBT people with? I don't really care about or "hate" either of them as individuals, I've never met them, but I hoped that by reading about them and writing through it myself I could better understand why they (and other people) act like they did rather than just dismissing them as "crazy" without further thought.

At the same time, it's important to remember that both of these people explicitly support policies that would hurt people I know and care about in real life, and that the only reason they fall into the category of "interesting" rather than "dangerous" is that they have no real influence or power. It's a weird position to be in, in that I just see them as "artists" in a weird unintentional way because I can understand other people better through their example. But if either of them actually had the sort of power they'd clearly like to have and used it in the way they very explicitly want to, then the world would be a much, much worse place and I probably would hate them personally.

You talked in one of your other comments about seeing these sorts of things in political vs. psychological terms. I'd say that is mostly why I wrote those long Reddit posts about Cerebus and Sinfest; I had no knowledge of Sinfest before seeing someone else on that subreddit talk about it, and I only knew of Cerebus because I got curious about the term "Cerebus Syndrome". So I didn't have any sort of specific personal anger at them the way a fan of their previous work might, and while they're both pretty awful people, the internet is full of awful people if that was what I was looking for.

It was more about a question of "why would they do this" than "how dare they do this", more psychological than political like you said. Why would someone like Dave Sim, a genuinely talented creator whose work was widely seen as some of the best comics writing in history, suddenly turn into a borderline self-parody with no awareness of what he was talking about? Why did Tatsuya Ishida, whose comics were generally vaguely left-leaning but not really political at all, turn into a pretty far-right political cartoonist with no interest in his own characters except as political vehicles to attack LGBT people with? I don't really care about or "hate" either of them as individuals, I've never met them, but I hoped that by reading about them and writing through it myself I could better understand why they (and other people) act like they did rather than just dismissing them as "crazy" without further thought.

At the same time, it's important to remember that both of these people explicitly support policies that would hurt people I know and care about in real life, and that the only reason they fall into the category of "interesting" rather than "dangerous" is that they have no real influence or power. It's a weird position to be in, in that I just see them as "artists" in a weird unintentional way because I can understand other people better through their example. But if either of them actually had the sort of power they'd clearly like to have and used it in the way they very explicitly want to, then the world would be a much, much worse place and I probably would hate them personally.

Lordofsea19~2Y

I'm not sure how long I've been following your blog. When I first discovered you I considered myself a child, and you an adult. Today I consider us to be of equal age. Weird, right?

I want nothing but to see you succeed. I really think you deserve some big "break". This is really what I'm hoping for whenever I think of you.

But to do this you do need to promote yourself. You need to get out there. I think it's easy to believe that it's pointless and that it'll attract trolls - but it'll also attract new followers who are genuinely interested in what you have to offer.

And you have genuine material that will appeal to *several* niche groups. Your themes focus on pacifism, introspection, and emotions. Hello? Have you followed the social developments on the internet during the last decade? Your material is gold for so many communities. It has such potential.

But you need to reach these communities. You need to promote yourself. Through Reddit, Tumblr, and whatever else exists out there. I encourage you to do this. You need to do this!

You yourself seem to acknowledge that many of the people following/commenting this blog are 'old-time'-fans that have been with you since the beginning.

That's because you have a genuinely amazing and creative mind. People relate to what you have to offer!

Now, please. Go and promote your shit. Your content is amazing. You just need to get it out there.

I'm not sure how long I've been following your blog. When I first discovered you I considered myself a child, and you an adult. Today I consider us to be of equal age. Weird, right?

I want nothing but to see you succeed. I really think you deserve some big "break". This is really what I'm hoping for whenever I think of you.

But to do this you do need to promote yourself. You need to get out there. I think it's easy to believe that it's pointless and that it'll attract trolls - but it'll also attract new followers who are genuinely interested in what you have to offer.

And you have genuine material that will appeal to *several* niche groups. Your themes focus on pacifism, introspection, and emotions. Hello? Have you followed the social developments on the internet during the last decade? Your material is gold for so many communities. It has such potential.

But you need to reach these communities. You need to promote yourself. Through Reddit, Tumblr, and whatever else exists out there. I encourage you to do this. You need to do this!

You yourself seem to acknowledge that many of the people following/commenting this blog are 'old-time'-fans that have been with you since the beginning.

That's because you have a genuinely amazing and creative mind. People relate to what you have to offer!

Now, please. Go and promote your shit. Your content is amazing. You just need to get it out there.

phsc57~2Y

You're already seen as "hey, aren't you the guy who [insert terrible thing I've done or said here]?", according to a lot of people you did ruin MARDEK and such, does it matter if you go out and they say it to your face?

In the modern era of the internet, and people being able to stay in bubbles and not interact with those they dislike, it is very interesting how people often worry about things they know, but they just don't want to see it, people will always have opinions about things and while someone will love your work, someone will hate it, and just filtering it out actually sort of does nothing if you think about it, because deep down the memory is still there, you know people will complain about things and this is why you don't want to go out spread your content, and this is what it is, what is there to fear? the negative backlash you already felt and know will happen again?

I think you should go out there and promote your things, while you will have to deal with negative backlash and such, you already do, don't you? you just sort of put it under the rug, that is how I see it, I think that exposing yourself to the people that you dislike could even be positive, fear often comes out of ignorance and I think this is one of these cases, WHAT IF they do it? well, what changes then? I don't think people will start hacking you these days, and if they CAN do it probably means there is a security issue, ignoring the issue does not make it go away - someone could do it for other reasons you cannot imagine - and it probably means you should maybe focus on it?

I see this a lot and not only with you, it is a modern phenomena, and it is getting more and more common, people want those who accept them and make them feel good, but that is not how one improves as a person, you improve out of failure and criticism, and while it feels bad, it only feels bad now, because once you understand that failing puts you one step closer to your goal, that it makes you better, stronger, or whatever positive self help word someone would put here.

And if you say that you will feel sad about it, sadness is temporary, I think it is important to learn how to pick the good apples from a bad bunch, the people you talk to, how did you meet them, probably out of the communities "full of toxic people", right?

Anyway, I just want to say something I think I've said earlier but I have no idea of what you think about it, you put labels on yourself and see yourself as static, you are "sensitive", "agreeable", and such, while these are traits that do describe you, such traits refer to other traits, and a typical logical issue with typology of any form is that, let's say group X is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,9 and 10. Now, if you take that group, someone who fits 1 to 9 is 90% X, someone who fits 2 to 10 is also 90% X, they are not the same type of person and a lot of these traits are not inherent to it, I think you can easily be sensitive, but able to filter it, it is actually good to be sensitive to what someone close says, but some internet random? and so it goes.

The truth is, I think your issues are not as big as you think they are (literally), because you do not try to solve them - as ridiculous as this may sound - if you think about it, you worry about a lot of things but never actually do something to fix them right, but if they are such important things, why are you not doing them? maybe they actually are not that important, it is really funny because neuroscience has a lot to say about this, I will give you one tip that is very retarded but it is literally how dopamine works in the mesocortical and mesolimbic pathways, literally start thinking about what you want, it will make you feel bad and uncomfortable, and this is what causes change, going from a worse situation to a better one according to your brain, putting it under the rug does not help.

Anyway, before you mention "He should have toughed it out in the battledome LIKE A MAN!! Or bent over to do everything the fans wanted, as if they're all in agreement anyway!"
See, people do not believe things for no reason, the BECOMING TOUGH LIKE A MAN philosophy is actually very stupid, but also not incorrect, it is not about becoming tough or a man, but the principle behind it is the same I am describing here, because it is literally how the mind works, which is funny because a lot of MANLY MEN do not want to get out of their comfort zones and go do things they dislike as well, out of the fear of their image, out of the fear of failure... it is very funny how the issues that affect people on one side of the spectrum affect people on the other one.

Anyway, I hope you understand what I am trying to say, because at some point if everything goes wrong and you give up trying, life will force you to try, and you probably will understand what I am trying to say later, in a much less pleasant way.

In the modern era of the internet, and people being able to stay in bubbles and not interact with those they dislike, it is very interesting how people often worry about things they know, but they just don't want to see it, people will always have opinions about things and while someone will love your work, someone will hate it, and just filtering it out actually sort of does nothing if you think about it, because deep down the memory is still there, you know people will complain about things and this is why you don't want to go out spread your content, and this is what it is, what is there to fear? the negative backlash you already felt and know will happen again?

I think you should  go out there and promote your things, while you will have to deal with negative backlash and such, you already do, don't you? you just sort of put it under the rug, that is how I see it, I think that exposing yourself to the people that you dislike could even be positive, fear often comes out of ignorance and I think this is one of these cases, WHAT IF they do it? well, what changes then? I don't think people will start hacking you these days, and if they CAN do it probably means there is a security issue, ignoring the issue does not make it go away - someone could do it for other reasons you cannot imagine - and it probably means you should maybe focus on it?

I see this a lot and not only with you, it is a modern phenomena, and it is getting more and more common, people want those who accept them and make them feel good, but that is not how one improves as a person, you improve out of failure and criticism, and while it feels bad, it only feels bad now, because once you understand that failing puts you one step closer to your goal, that it makes you better, stronger, or whatever positive self help word someone would put here.

And if you say that you will feel sad about it, sadness is temporary, I think it is important to learn how to pick the good apples from a bad bunch, the people you talk to, how did you meet them, probably out of the communities "full of toxic people", right?

Anyway, I just want to say something I think I've said earlier but I have no idea of what you think about it, you put labels on yourself and see yourself as static, you are "sensitive", "agreeable", and such, while these are traits that do describe you, such traits refer to other traits, and a typical logical issue with typology of any form is that, let's say group X is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,9 and 10. Now, if you take that group, someone who fits 1 to 9 is 90% X, someone who fits 2 to 10 is also 90% X, they are not the same type of person and a lot of these traits are not inherent to it, I think you can easily be sensitive, but able to filter it, it is actually good to be sensitive to what someone close says, but some internet random? and so it goes.

The truth is, I think your issues are not as big as you think they are (literally), because you do not try to solve them - as ridiculous as this may sound - if you think about it, you worry about a lot of things but never actually do something to fix them right, but if they are such important things, why are you not doing them? maybe they actually are not that important, it is really funny because neuroscience has a lot to say about this, I will give you one tip that is very retarded but it is literally how dopamine works in the mesocortical and mesolimbic pathways, literally start thinking about what you want, it will make you feel bad and uncomfortable, and this is what causes change, going from a worse situation to a better one according to your brain, putting it under the rug does not help.

Anyway, before you mention "He should have toughed it out in the battledome LIKE A MAN!! Or bent over to do everything the fans wanted, as if they're all in agreement anyway!"
See, people do not believe things for no reason, the BECOMING TOUGH LIKE A MAN philosophy is actually very stupid, but also not incorrect, it is not about becoming tough or a man, but the principle behind it is the same I am describing here, because it is literally how the mind works, which is funny because a lot of MANLY MEN do not want to get out of their comfort zones and go do things they dislike as well, out of the fear of their image, out of the fear of failure... it is very funny how the issues that affect people on one side of the spectrum affect people on the other one.

Anyway, I hope you understand what I am trying to say, because at some point if everything goes wrong and you give up trying, life will force you to try, and you probably will understand what I am trying to say later, in a much less pleasant way.

purplerabbits148~2Y

I have a strong feeling that you are trying to be encouraging, but I don't know how well the core message comes through. From my own observation, Tobias will move things on his terms, a self motivation so to say. I'm going to guess that you don't have or know someone with Anxiety, the clinical kind not the colloquial associated kind.

I don't personally have it, but I have had 1 panic attack and several friends with clinical Anxiety. For people with Anxiety, they cannot turn their brains off from fear. To normal people they can look at a situation and find it to be no big deal, but for the ones with Anxiety it could be a difficult road to climb.

One of the reasons why people with Anxiety have strong avoidance behaviors comes from their high likelihood of experiencing panic attacks. Having experienced it once, I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I suddenly had a tight feeling in my chest, elevated temperature, sweaty palms, and difficulty breathing. I had thoughts of sending a last message to my friends letting them know that I cared for them. I unfortuanatly have intimate knowledge of heart attacks because of deaths in my family due to heart attacks and because I have high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Thankfully, the moment passed and I am still present typing this to you. I thankfully know that I will probably never experience a panic attack again, because it was caused by a bad combo of medication that I am no longer on.

But for those with clinical Anxiety, they don't have any guarantee that they will never experience it again, it is something they are more likely to experience because of their own biology. Unknown situations have a tendency of triggering a panic attack, hence why people with Anxiety are more likely to avoid situations.

I believe that you are trying to give Tobias some words that would push him to take the steps needed to overcome his problems, but it's difficult to force someone to do things. It's a bit like watching a friend get into a toxic relationship, but the friend has rose-tinted glasses on due to being in the honeymoon period of a new realationship. You can tell them all you want that the relationship is bad, but that friend would not listen. It's only until the friend decides on their own , that things can change.

Even though, to me, that you have well intentioned hard truths and tough love, your message may not be entirely recieved, because it's not the right time.

I don't personally have it, but I have had 1 panic attack and several friends with clinical Anxiety. For people with Anxiety, they cannot turn their brains off from fear. To normal people they can look at a situation and find it to be no big deal, but for the ones with Anxiety it could be a difficult road to climb.

One of the reasons why people with Anxiety have strong avoidance behaviors comes from their high likelihood of experiencing panic attacks. Having experienced it once, I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I suddenly had a tight feeling in my chest, elevated temperature, sweaty palms, and difficulty breathing. I had thoughts of sending a last message to my friends letting them know that I cared for them. I unfortuanatly have intimate knowledge of heart attacks because of deaths in my family due to heart attacks and because I have high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Thankfully, the moment passed and I am still present typing this to you.  I thankfully know that I will probably never experience a panic attack again, because it was caused by a bad combo of medication that I am no longer on.

But for those with clinical Anxiety, they don't have any guarantee that they will never experience it again, it is something they are more likely to experience because of their own biology. Unknown situations have a tendency of triggering a panic attack, hence why people with Anxiety are more likely to avoid situations.

I believe that you are trying to give Tobias some words that would push him to take the steps needed to overcome his problems, but it's difficult to force someone to do things. It's a bit like watching a friend get into a toxic relationship, but the friend has rose-tinted glasses on due to being in the honeymoon period of a new realationship. You can tell them all you want that the relationship is bad, but that friend would not listen. It's only until the friend decides on their own , that things can change.

Even though, to me, that you have well intentioned hard truths and tough love, your message may not be entirely recieved, because it's not the right time.

phsc57~2Y

Years ago I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder (I've mentioned this here before), and I am still a very anxious person, I just do the most rational approach, to figure things out and go agaisnt it, because it (the anxiety) is often irrational, this is the entire principle of CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Theraphy) actually, but you don't seem know about such things.

You don't need to turn your brain off, I have extreme trouble with sleeping and such and I overthink everything, but I still get things done as uncomfortable as it may get, not always but I fight agaisn't it, stop justifying unhealthy behaviour just because it feels bad, it is not okay to be the way you are if you are not comfortable with the way you are and it's implications on your life, there is a way out of it, and while short-term it looks complicated and such, it actually is not, it is all about the collective experiences your mind and neurons have, you do need to constantly repeat such "out of comfort zone" exercises because of how neurons often forget things (basically, read Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman to understand this a biiit deeper).

Also I am not saying to him that he should go and invade a military base completely alone and in case he fails everything he loves and wishes will be destroyed + he will suffer for all eternity, one is supposed to go slow, but too slow does not have an impact, what is going to happen if he promotes stuff? people will talk shit about him? they already do.

And yeah, the relationship example is true, but you still need to keep saying and saying because maybe at the exact right time it hits his mind and he gets what you are trying to say.

And the truth is, it never seems like it is the right time, I've sort of tried to tell Tobias this for the last 2 years, in different ways with different languages and approaches even, and he still complains about the exact same things while doing very little to change them, I think deep down it is just arrogance and thinking he knows better than others, and while one would often say "hey fuck this guy it is a waste of time", I think that achieves nothing.

Also, I am not sure about it but apparently Tobias has Asperger's/Autism/whatever, see, this is also extremely relevant, I know two guys with aspergers, one of them is completely into the "comfort zone" and if you write things in all caps to him he might unfriend you, and another took the exact opposite approach, he took treatement and does exercises to sort of stimulate unpleasant situations and things (like touching, noise, and a lot more), this with of course Cognitive Behavioral Theraphy which at later points you can sort of apply yourself in tense situations, and well, guess which one is happier after all? which one is doing what he wishes he did?

While this is anecdotal, you can look up a lot of research on how people deal with autism and such, it is even better if treatements start at younger ages but it is still just as complicated to get kids to do them.

Now you know what does not help? complaining about it online, and going to people who are just going to agree with you, the way you find truth and change things is by trying new things and looking for what disagrees with you, this is uncomfortable, but I mean, what alternative is there?

So yeah, I get your message and intentions, but you probably did not read other comments I wrote in the past (some I got a bit deeper into neuroscience about other suggestions and such), and I tried other approaches in the past.

But it is like that, you know that overweight person that wants to go to the gym, and goes like, one day, but in the other one is too tired and tries to justify it with a lot of things (generally not even that valid, like if the person had a proper medical issue or something it is one thing, now feeling tired or light pain?), well, then someone goes up to them and says "you should go there and do things otherwise nothing will change", and the other one goes there and says "oh, it is okay to be fat, just be yourself and accept who you are", completely ignoring that deep down the motivation that person has and their inner thinking indicates that the person is not comfortable with that, it all goes down to one things, people are not born in a way, they become a way, nurture is much more relevant than nature and this is well known in neuroscience and psychology, even if you have specific genes often they still need to be activated and really, their impact is smaller than people often think, and just like you can become who you are right now, that self can be deconstructed and a new you can be made. It all goes down to this, what is easier, hope for the world to adapt to you and such, or adapt yourself to the world? one ideally is easier, but is really is not going to happen, so the truth is, you only have one choice... and at some point life forces you to make that one.

There is no right time, because if you are in the "comfort zone" the right time will never come, it is just going to be tomorrow, when you are not feeling as bad or as tired or as sad, or as ANXIOUS, but the reason you are feeling all of that is because you keep procrastinating and waiting for the right time.

About the anxiety aspect, it still affects me, but in a more productive way, I care a lot about safety for example, both monetary (I spend very little money to live and on things, and generally save a lot of money), physical (I am very worried when walking around and constantly check if shady things are not going on, I am basically unable to walk around with headphones looking at my cellphone like people do, about that, I have two cellphones, one I use when going out for emergencies that has basically no information about me and my accounts that are important, and another I use at home to confirm things, I also always plan what I am going to do, I want to buy a ballistic plate carrier of class 3A to wear under my clothing for safety reasons because you never know what is going to happen, and I don't care about the comfort that is tied to such things.
But, if I have a job interview, or need to go to a new place I don't know, or do something that is high risk high reward (that is sort of necessary or a good idea to take, of course), I still do it, because while inside I am very, very anxious, I realize it is irrational).
Ayway, the biggest lesson I've learned is that when it comes to anxiety, knowledge is key, the thing that 1000% makes me feel most anxious and worry the most is not knowing things, what I am supposed to do, where I am, what I would do in case something happens, etc, and I just work it out by thinking and planning, and with time you learn how to control your emotions and most importantly, how you are displaying your emotions (nobody wants to hire someone who is stuttering when answering a question or taking too long, for example), to people.

You don't need to turn your brain off, I have extreme trouble with sleeping and such and I overthink everything, but I still get things done as uncomfortable as it may get, not always but I fight agaisn't it, stop justifying unhealthy behaviour just because it feels bad, it is not okay to be the way you are if you are not comfortable with the way you are and it's implications on your life, there is a way out of it, and while short-term it looks complicated and such, it actually is not, it is all about the collective experiences your mind and neurons have, you do need to constantly repeat such "out of comfort zone" exercises because of how neurons often forget things (basically, read Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman to understand this a biiit deeper).

Also I am not saying to him that he should go and invade a military base completely alone and in case he fails everything he loves and wishes will be destroyed + he will suffer for all eternity, one is supposed to go slow, but too slow does not have an impact, what is going to happen if he promotes stuff? people will talk shit about him? they already do.

And yeah, the relationship example is true, but you still need to keep saying and saying because maybe at the exact right time it hits his mind and he gets what you are trying to say.

And the truth is, it never seems like it is the right time, I've sort of tried to tell Tobias this for the last 2 years, in different ways with different languages and approaches even, and he still complains about the exact same things while doing very little to change them, I think deep down it is just arrogance and thinking he knows better than others, and while one would often say "hey fuck this guy it is a waste of time", I think that achieves nothing.

Also, I am not sure about it but apparently Tobias has Asperger's/Autism/whatever, see, this is also extremely relevant, I know two guys with aspergers, one of them is completely into the "comfort zone" and if you write things in all caps to him he might unfriend you, and another took the exact opposite approach, he took treatement and does exercises to sort of stimulate unpleasant situations and things (like touching, noise, and a lot more), this with of course Cognitive Behavioral Theraphy which at later points you can sort of apply yourself in tense situations, and well, guess which one is happier after all? which one is doing what he wishes he did?

While this is anecdotal, you can look up a lot of research on how people deal with autism and such, it is even better if treatements start at younger ages but it is still just as complicated to get kids to do them.

Now you know what does not help? complaining about it online, and going to people who are just going to agree with you, the way you find truth and change things is by trying new things and looking for what disagrees with you, this is uncomfortable, but I mean, what alternative is there?

So yeah, I get your message and intentions, but you probably did not read other comments I wrote in the past (some I got a bit deeper into neuroscience about other suggestions and such), and I tried other approaches in the past.

But it is like that, you know that overweight person that wants to go to the gym, and goes like, one day, but in the other one is too tired and tries to justify it with a lot of things (generally not even that valid, like if the person had a proper medical issue or something it is one thing, now feeling tired or light pain?), well, then someone goes up to them and says "you should go there and do things otherwise nothing will change", and the other one goes there and says "oh, it is okay to be fat, just be yourself and accept who you are", completely ignoring that deep down the motivation that person has and their inner thinking indicates that the person is not comfortable with that, it all goes down to one things, people are not born in a way, they become a way, nurture is much more relevant than nature and this is well known in neuroscience and psychology, even if you have specific genes often they still need to be activated and really, their impact is smaller than people often think, and just like you can become who you are right now, that self can be deconstructed and a new you can be made. It all goes down to this, what is easier, hope for the world to adapt to you and such, or adapt yourself to the world? one ideally is easier, but is really is not going to happen, so the truth is, you only have one choice... and at some point life forces you to make that one.

There is no right time, because if you are in the "comfort zone" the right time will never come, it is just going to be tomorrow, when you are not feeling as bad or as tired or as sad, or as ANXIOUS, but the reason you are feeling all of that is because you keep procrastinating and waiting for the right time.

About the anxiety aspect, it still affects me, but in a more productive way, I care a lot about safety for example, both monetary (I spend very little money to live and on things, and  generally save a lot of money), physical (I am very worried when walking around and constantly check if shady things are not going on, I am basically unable to walk around with headphones looking at my cellphone like people do, about that, I have two cellphones, one I use when going out for emergencies that has basically no information about me and my accounts that are important, and another I use at home to confirm things, I also always plan what I am going to do, I want to buy a ballistic plate carrier of class 3A to wear under my clothing for safety reasons because you never know what is going to happen, and I don't care about the comfort that is tied to such things.
But, if I have a job interview, or need to go to a new place I don't know, or do something that is high risk high reward (that is sort of necessary or a good idea to take, of course), I still do it, because while inside I am very, very anxious, I realize it is irrational).
Ayway, the biggest lesson I've learned is that when it comes to anxiety, knowledge is key, the thing that 1000% makes me feel most anxious and worry the most is not knowing things, what I am supposed to do, where I am, what I would do in case something happens, etc, and I just work it out by thinking and planning, and with time you learn how to control your emotions and most importantly, how you are displaying your emotions (nobody wants to hire someone who is stuttering when answering a question or taking too long, for example), to people.

purplerabbits148~2Y

Ah I see. So when I read your post the tone came off as though you were trying to force Tobias to do things, that would theoretically help him manage his Anxiety. As far as I can tell, for Anxiety, they best way to face it is to, quite literally, face the issue head on and use CBT, as you have said. The main thing though, is that Tobias has to be the one wanting to continue the change, and not be at the pace you dictate. For example if you 5150 someone, forcefully commit someone for their psychiatric issue like anxiety or anorexia or other issues, the person during that time will be forced to deal with their issues very unwillingly. The person, if sent to a treament center, will learn to deal with their issues only to the degree that the evaluatotors are satisfied. And then when released the person goes right back to their issues. The involuntary commitment failed because the person didn't have the foundation of wanting that change.

In terms of Asperger's and Autism, I am pretty sure that Tobias doesn't have it since he's posted that people think he does, but his symptoms don't match the DSM - 5. One of the clearest points comes from Tobias being too aware of social cues. Aspergers/Autism is characterised by people entirely missing social cues. I have 3 friends that are on the Autism Spectrum and they are awesome. One of them told me about CBT and that helped me with an entirely different issue.

I get where you are coming from about knowing how to manage something and feeling that fustration when someone struggles and you know exactly how to get that struggle to stop. But that person struggling isn't me, so the same exact steps I took may not work exactly the same. For example, I have a friend who deliberatly induced a panic attack and stared Anxiety down knowing that she can't die from a panic attack. After that she has not had another panic attack nor had any issues with Anxiety. Now, both you and I know that there is a difference between FEELING like you are going to die and ACTUALLY dying, but you gotta agree that not everyone has it within them to manage their Anxiety in such a hard core way.

As someone who was 200lbs and 5 ft tall, both ' "you should go there and do things otherwise nothing will change", and the other one goes there and says "oh, it is okay to be fat, just be yourself and accept who you are" ' are discouraging. Both of them entirely sound defeatist where the "lose weight" option sounds like it's the only way through is to suffer and the other is discouragement because it's pointless to try. The phrase to get me through is something like, "Hey, I get it's hard, but I believe you can do it, look you did 5 more reps than last time." That works much better for me because it shows aknowledgement that it's not easy, and that it shows that there is progress and that I am objectively closer to the goal. Here's the thing about getting obese and losing that weight, it took me a long 20 years to get that fat, I will not lose all that weight in 1 month. A more accurate way to put a time frame to loosing weight is half the time it took to get there. That way you don't end up at 0 for weight. In a way, that's the same way I look at managing mental health issues. It takes time to undo a lifetime of a habit and to maintain the new status quo.

I see your fustration that there seems to be a lack of change in Tobias about his issues. As you said with venting seeming pointless, I thought venting was a waste of time, at least until I saw venting in a different light. To make my next point clear, I need to explain a bit of my ADHD. I have a very limited working memory compared to other people. If you look at people's brains like a computer, normal people have 5 RAM (aka working memory), on the other hand I have 3 RAM. To compensate for less Working Memory, I put my thought out externally so that I free up some "RAM" to process my thoughts. For example, I mentally "lag" when trying to add 27+96. If I try to do mental math, I keep getting tripped up with carying the 1's for both the one's and ten's units. But if I write it out I don't need to keep track of carrying the units, I don't need to store the 27 and 96 as variables, and I have more "RAM" to carry out the fuction of addition.

So how does ADHD and venting come together? The same processing happens to me when it comes to emotions. Formerly, before venting, I used to just seep in the emotions I was feeling. I didn't have enough working memeory to do more with processing what I was feeling. Only after externally writing out my feelings, did I finally process and move on from just seething. Now I can't speak on behalf of Tobias, but for me, writing out my thoughts allowed me to clear out my brain from repetitive ideas that I gone though and allws for me to process the ideas and do something about them.

I actually do remember your posts, they are usually filled with great scientific explanations and have helpful advice. CBT is a great tool and I can attest that it works. To me, It seems more like you want to communicate to Tobias, but the way you are presenting the information doesn't seem to resonate with him. It reminds me of the way how essay writing was taught to me in high school, the Jane Schaffer method of essay writing made absolutely no sense to me, and so I did very badly with English class until I went to Uni. In Uni, the professors told us to write the essays in a way that makes sense to us, so I wrote Literary analysis papers the same way I wrote scientific research papers. I got significantly better grades as a result. A change in tone and method of presentation may help better get your message across.

I understand that you are fustrated that it's been 2 years of trying to get Tobias to improve. I've been around since the end of Fighunter which is about 10 years ago...maybe longer (ADHD and time blindness for the win!) Back then, he was even more depressed and seemed to carry a paranoia. But in present day he's managed to graduate with a degree, seemed open to the idea of therapy, and looking at kickstarting his game. All those seemed like a tall order 10 years ago, but he is slowly improving on himself and I'd like to believe that he will overcome his issues.

Maybe I'm projecting a bit from my weight loss journey, but I'm not just a yes man, I'm doing the same thing that got me though to not be obese, by acknowledging that things can be hard, and encouraging him when he makes progress. Tobias is 30 ish so it may take him 15 years to entirely overturn his Anxiety, but I'll be about since going about it alone would be hell.

In terms of Asperger's and Autism, I am pretty sure that Tobias doesn't have it since he's posted that people think he does, but his symptoms don't match the DSM - 5. One of the clearest points comes from Tobias being too aware of social cues. Aspergers/Autism is characterised by people entirely missing social cues. I have 3 friends that are on the Autism Spectrum and they are awesome. One of them told me about CBT and that helped me with an entirely different issue.

I get where you are coming from about knowing how to manage something and feeling that fustration when someone struggles and you know exactly how to get that struggle to stop. But that person struggling isn't me, so the same exact steps I took may not work exactly the same. For example, I have a friend who deliberatly induced a panic attack and stared Anxiety down knowing that she can't die from a panic attack. After that she has not had another panic attack nor had any issues with Anxiety. Now, both you and I know that there is a difference between FEELING like you are going to die and ACTUALLY dying, but you gotta agree that not everyone has it within them to manage their Anxiety in such a hard core way.

As someone who was 200lbs and 5 ft tall, both ' "you should go there and do things otherwise nothing will change", and the other one goes there and says "oh, it is okay to be fat, just be yourself and accept who you are" ' are discouraging. Both of them entirely sound defeatist where the "lose weight" option sounds like it's the only way through is to suffer and the other is discouragement because it's pointless to try. The phrase to get me through is something like, "Hey, I get it's hard, but I believe you can do it, look you did 5 more reps than last time." That works much better for me because it shows aknowledgement that it's not easy, and that it shows that there is progress and that I am objectively closer to the goal. Here's the thing about getting obese and losing that weight, it took me a long 20 years to get that fat, I will not lose all that weight in 1 month. A more accurate way to put a time frame to loosing weight is half the time it took to get there. That way you don't end up at 0 for weight. In a way, that's the same way I look at managing mental health issues. It takes time to undo a lifetime of a habit and to maintain the new status quo.

I see your fustration that there seems to be a lack of change in Tobias about his issues. As you said with venting seeming pointless, I thought venting was a waste of time, at least until I saw venting in a different light. To make my next point clear, I need to explain a bit of my ADHD. I have a very limited working memory compared to other people. If you look at people's brains like a computer, normal people have 5 RAM (aka working memory), on the other hand I have 3 RAM. To compensate for less Working Memory, I put my thought out externally so that I free up some "RAM" to process my thoughts. For example, I mentally "lag" when trying to add 27+96. If I try to do mental math, I keep getting tripped up with carying the 1's for both the one's and ten's units. But if I write it out I don't need to keep track of carrying the units, I don't need to store the 27 and 96 as variables, and I have more "RAM" to carry out the fuction of addition.

So how does ADHD and venting come together? The same processing happens to me when it comes to emotions. Formerly, before venting, I used to just seep in the emotions I was feeling. I didn't have enough working memeory to do more with processing what I was feeling. Only after externally writing out my feelings, did I finally process and move on from just seething. Now I can't speak on behalf of Tobias, but for me, writing out my thoughts allowed me to clear out my brain from repetitive ideas that I gone though and allws for me to process the ideas and do something about them.

I actually do remember your posts, they are usually filled with great scientific explanations and have helpful advice. CBT is a great tool and I can attest that it works. To me, It seems more like you want to communicate to Tobias, but the way you are presenting the information doesn't seem to resonate with him. It reminds me of the way how essay writing was taught to me in high school,  the  Jane Schaffer method of essay writing made absolutely no sense to me, and so I did very badly with English class until I went to Uni. In Uni, the professors told us to write the essays in a way that makes sense to us, so I wrote Literary analysis papers the same way I wrote scientific research papers. I got significantly better grades as a result. A change in tone and method of presentation may help better get your message across.

I understand that you are fustrated that it's been 2 years of trying to get Tobias to improve. I've been around since the end of Fighunter which is about 10 years ago...maybe longer (ADHD and time blindness for the win!) Back then, he was even more depressed and seemed to carry a paranoia. But in present day he's managed to graduate with a degree, seemed open to the idea of therapy, and looking at kickstarting his game. All those seemed like a tall order 10 years ago, but he is slowly improving on himself and I'd like to believe that he will overcome his issues.

Maybe I'm projecting a bit from my weight loss journey, but I'm not just a yes man, I'm doing the same thing that got me though to not be obese, by acknowledging that things can be hard, and encouraging him when he makes progress. Tobias is 30 ish so it may take him 15 years to entirely overturn his Anxiety, but I'll be about since going about it alone would be hell.

spamove2~2Y

>how he "ended up with a tiny group of hardcore supporters through his increasingly transparent contempt for his audience".

> (...) and of course it happened to me, too (though obviously I'm not on the same level as any of these people).

you made me raise a brow there. Care to elaborate?