Alora Fane

Well, no miracles yesterday.

First, thanks to those of you who've left comments on these posts in which I overshare about my dismal personal life. I've been terrible at replying, as usual, though I appreciate the compassion.

I went to the second class of the counselling course last night, after spending the whole day anxious about it.

I came out just feeling hopeless and deeply depressed, worse than usual. Terms like 'spirit broken' floated around my mind on the dark, lonely walk home.

I got a better look at my classmates since I didn't sit in front of everyone this time. Last time I thought they were all way more fashionable-looking than me; this time I realised they were more normal and the difference inbetween me and them probably wasn't that stark, at least in terms of simple appearance. I probably didn't look like some escaped mental patient among a group in black tie.

I also got to talk to a couple of them briefly, and I overhead some of their interactions too, which only accentuated the feelings of alienation.

Someone sat next to me, to my surprise, and we worked together as a pair for some discussion task. We were very different, and I could sense I was being socially inept despite trying. How could I not be, after so long isolating? After the task, she turned to the pair to her right and talked with them as a trio while I just silently simmered in negative thoughts. Another pair talked on my left. The people either side of me - with an empty space between me and the one on the left - noticeably had their backs turned to me while talking with the others. Body language conveys a lot.

(Could also be that mine was unwelcoming or off-putting, though.)

During a break, everyone got up to leave the room. My instinct was to stay in my seat while everyone else mingled, but I thought I won't have any hope of fitting in if I do that, so I at least followed them out to see where they even went. We all walked - with them chatting among each other while I quietly trailed behind - to a vending machine.

Oh, actually, stepping back a bit, I arrived a bit early for the class, and as soon as I entered the reception, the receptionist waved to me and said "hello, Tobias!". She was the one I had the most interesting interaction with last time, and it apparently stuck in her mind enough - or I did - that she remembered my name. I didn't remember hers - I don't think she even told me - so I asked, but I said I did remember that she mentioned her Myers-Briggs type, which she repeated was INTJ, pronounced "int-jay". I always used to say them like that! Though these days I've switched to "eye en tee jay". She also mentioned Jordan Peterson, I don't remember why; unbeknownst to her, I'd literally just been listening to the audiobook of 12 Rules For Life on the walk there (I've been meaning to get through it for years), so I mentioned that. We talked briefly, but got cut off when she had to do her job and take a call. A shame. I'd be curious to know her story, and why she had even the slightest interest in engaging with me. Why I'd stuck in her mind.

When everyone went to the vending machine, I thought I'd at least maybe go back and talk to her again... but the reception was dark and empty by this point. So instead I stood with the group, though I kind of hung around at the back silently, listening.

All of them talked about either their careers, their partners, their children, or popular (but in my opinion vapid) television programmes like ∞ Love Island ∞. Even if I'd wanted to join in, what could I possibly have said? WHAT'S YOUR FAVOURITE POKEMON MINE'S GIRAFARIG.

It's not that I don't have interesting things to say. I feel I do, and I can have ~deep conversations~ for hours once the opportunity arrives. It's just this mundane stuff that I have no connection to because my life experience has been so vastly different.

I felt too awkward to just wander off, though, so I just lurked silently with them, increasingly aware of how I was being ignored. My mind went to this study I remember learning about back when getting my Psychology degree:

In a nutshell, social exclusion activates the exact same brain regions as physical pain. (And can be lessened with painkillers; I should pump myself full of drugs next time, I bet that'd help!!)

I also recalled how way back in school, I was always the last chosen for groups or PE teams; can't remember if I already mentioned that in the post yesterday. It's a result of poor socialisation during childhood - which Jordan Peterson was talking about at length in the section of the book I happened to hear on the way there, funnily enough - and it's very difficult to undo that damage once it's done.

After a while, as their chatter naturally came to a close, one looked to me and asked in a tone I wouldn't describe as welcoming whether I wanted to get something from the vending machine, causing a sudden cold shift in atmosphere that every outcast is likely used to when they're addressed (if you're not familiar with it, everyone goes immediately quiet and their body language shifts in an alarm- or unease-flavoured way; it's palpably awkward). I just gave a disarming laugh and said no, it's okay, and then they all turned as a group to head back to class, and back to ignoring me.

I trailed behind silently, my role in the tribe fairly firmly cemented by this point.

Another thing I just remembered was that, during another break, I left the room quickly while everyone else took their time gathering their belongings, putting on coats, etc (I don't 'get comfortable' in strange settings, and keep my coat on, like the weirdo I am).

A younger-seeming girl followed me fairly quickly, and while navigating the doors and corridors we had some brief exchanges ("thanks" and the like while holding open doors), and her tone sounded less disgusted or distancing than I would have expected. I wondered whether we might get a chance to talk, and whether she might even want to engage with someone like me (what a thought!).

But no. Mere moments later, we entered the cafeteria area where what I'm assuming was her boyfriend was sitting there on his PC, and she went and talked to him.

I should try to alter my expectations for what I could get out of this course in the long run... but it's like saying that I 'should' feel okay when I'm punched in the face. The psychological reactions I've been getting from being reminded of my place in society as an outsider and outcast literally, neurologically hurt, and as I walked home I felt like I'd just fought a bear. Mentally. Or something.

If there was just one person as strange and as lonely as I am, we could both immensely improve each others' lives through mutual understanding. But I suppose it was a bit much expecting to find that in so small of a group.

Where am I supposed to find people like that though? If they even exist at all. More and more I'm dwelling on how what I hope to find - which doesn't even seem all that unreasonable to me - probably can't exist - especially as a potential person for someone my age - because of the vast differences in opportunity for social connection afforded to men and women.

I've lurked around online communities for social anxiety and the like for years now, and the posts by women are so often something like "I'm so awkward, I can't talk to people, I freeze up, I have nothing to say, I can't even leave my bedroom, I'm so lonely and have no friends and I hate it, if it wasn't for my boyfriend I-".

You might say I should talk more with other men. Even if I could easily shrug off the trauma, I just imagine that leading to either frustration at any venting I did being met with unwelcome advice, or maybe it'd just lead to a 'crabs in a bucket' scenario - like with the incel communities - where mutual bemoaning of our loserliness just trapped both of us in a vortex with little chance of escape.

My mum owns a flat she rents out, apparently, and we talked a bit (before the class) about me maybe moving in there if the current tennant - a very old woman - dies or otherwise leaves. If I were able to, then I wouldn't have to deal with strangers or as much uncertainty, but I also wouldn't get accustomed to finding a place of my own on my own.

She mentioned that one of the people living in an adjacent flat is a man who's maybe in his fifties, who lives there alone and holds his head down when passing her in the hallway. Broken, likely miserable.

Is that all I have to look forward to?

There are other things I could try, and should, but I've tried a bunch over the years and they usually end up with me being the weirdo outcast due to factors beyond my control (eg everyone else present is married with children).

I'll probably need to get at least a part time job, or maybe I should start with volunteering, but I see posts every day on the AvPD (and to a lesser extent the social anxiety) subreddits about people giving up jobs in days or weeks because they just end up feeling this constant pain of social exclusion.

Maybe I should just get myself committed to a mental hospital or something, as a patient. I don't even know if that's a joke. But my friend works in one of those, and from the sound of things most of the people there have demons far darker than my own.

I envy those of you who've been lucky enough to find people to share the journey with.

I don't know whether I'll continue with this course. I should at least try the next session, but beyond that... I don't know. We'll see. It'd be like sticking my hand in a fire every week.

One possibility is just dropping out this time but trying again during the next run, which I assume will start around September? That'd be another roll of the dice for who'd show up, at least. But I don't know.

I hate the simmering background pain of isolation. But the pain of direct reminders and comparison hurts on a different level. Like being in the cold versus being engulfed in a fire, maybe.

Also, I saw a post in one of the artist Reddit communities I recently followed by someone expressing negative feelings about how the fans they'd attracted were very different from the sort of people they hoped to attract... ∞ like I kind of did in a recent post ∞.

They were torn to shreds by everyone commenting. I'd likely be seen as similarly terrible were I to put myself out there again.

My pickiness about who I'd want to connect with probably comes across as equally objectionable. It's born from a desire to avoid feeling - or causing - pain, though, rather than some objective condemnation of particular groups' value.

14 COMMENTS

Astreon152~8M

I noticed you didn't talk about any form of interaction with the "teacher" this time around. Probably because your mind focused on what traumatized it, and also on finding a feminine match rather than a masculine one.

But from your previous posts, i got the feeling you could have interesting interactions with that person. And considering his age, you could find common interests quite easily (like maybe video games, besides, obviously, psychology).
Who knows, he could become somewhat of a friend, whom you might not feel too uncomfortable sharing the tip of the iceberg of your mental issues with ?

Also, there is a chance of interesting interactions with at least one woman you could try to explore further, namely the receptionist.

If anything, i'd recommend going to at least a few more classes to try and see how things go with those 2.
Give in to your tendency of coming in early to get more time to talk to the receptionist (btw, i was surprised by how easily you managed to bounce back on whatever she told you to have a proper conversation, which was interrupted by an outside cause rather than your usual demons).
And maybe make use of the breaks to interact with the teacher ?

But from your previous posts, i got the feeling you could have interesting interactions with that person. And considering his age, you could find common interests quite easily (like maybe video games, besides, obviously, psychology).
Who knows, he could become somewhat of a friend, whom you might not feel too uncomfortable sharing the tip of the iceberg of your mental issues with ?

Also, there is a chance of interesting interactions with at least one woman you could try to explore further, namely the receptionist.

If anything, i'd recommend going to at least a few more classes to try and see how things go with those 2. 
Give in to your tendency of coming in early to get more time to talk to the receptionist (btw, i was surprised by how easily you managed to bounce back on whatever she told you to have a proper conversation, which was interrupted by an outside cause rather than your  usual demons). 
And maybe make use of the breaks to interact with the teacher ?

Tobias 1115~8M

I actually didn't have as positive of an opinion with the tutor this time around. Not negative exactly, but I talked with him a bit before the class and I felt like he was annoyed by some of the things I was saying, or that we weren't as similar as I'd previously thought. He also seems tech-savvy enough, so I worried he might have looked me up and found this blog, so I didn't want to say anything I'd regret! Usually my online life and real-world life are quite disconnected from one another.

I don't know what you're assuming about me based on all the rambling I've done over the years, but I don't struggle to keep a conversation going. Have I painted myself as some kind of bumbling buffoon or something?? Or is that maybe something more related to your own experiences? I see a lot of people on Reddit talking about how they struggle to know what to say, or how to respond, but that's not the case for me. The conversations with the friends I do have tend to go for hours without any awkward silences. It's all down to whether or not the other person is receptive, though. Some people are more willing to put in the effort to engage, while others talk more to appease - or something like that - while just wanting to get away.

I don't know what you're assuming about me based on all the rambling I've done over the years, but I don't struggle to keep a conversation going. Have I painted myself as some kind of bumbling buffoon or something?? Or is that maybe something more related to your own experiences? I see a lot of people on Reddit talking about how they struggle to know what to say, or how to respond, but that's not the case for me. The conversations with the friends I do have tend to go for hours without any awkward silences. It's all down to whether or not the other person is receptive, though. Some people are more willing to put in the effort to engage, while others talk more to appease - or something like that - while just wanting to get away.

Davkett9~8M

Hey Tobias! Sorry things didn't go as well as you expected. But I think a silver lining to consider is that in these two classes, you've had some positive interactions nevertheless.

The receptionist was interested in talking with you, it's not that common to wave at a client and call them by name, especially not after a single encounter, so I'm pretty sure you left a positive impression on her, otherwise she would've given you a professional greeting and nothing more.

So you're pretty capable of being a good company when you find common interests, which you already pointed out in the post, it just becomes an issue of increasing the chances of meeting more people with those common interests.

Art classes could be a good space for that. Creative people seem more likely to be your kind of crowd, and since you are a good artist people may approach you to talk about your work or you could help out those who are just starting.

You mentioned the suggestion of talking with other men. In the previous post it seems that you got along well with the instructor, which helped you dispel some generalizations you had about men, at least a little. I won't suggest you vent to random dudes online -because you're right that there are a lot of misery spirals and assholes on the internet-, but it's a good idea to be open to people who share your passions, regardless of gender.

This course probably won't be the miracle you wanted, but I hope you keep the good experiences that may come out of it and continue searching for spaces where you can feel happy, I'm sure they exist.

Hey Tobias! Sorry things didn't go as well as you expected. But I think a silver lining to consider is that in these two classes, you've had some positive interactions nevertheless.

The receptionist was interested in talking with you, it's not that common to wave at a client and call them by name, especially not after a single encounter, so I'm pretty sure you left a positive impression on her, otherwise she would've given you a professional greeting and nothing more.

So you're pretty capable of being a good company when you find common interests, which you already pointed out in the post, it just becomes an issue of increasing the chances of meeting more people with those common interests.

Art classes could be a good space for that. Creative people seem more likely to be your kind of crowd, and since you are a good artist people may approach you to talk about your work or you could help out those who are just starting.

You mentioned the suggestion of talking with other men. In the previous post it seems that you got along well with the instructor, which helped you dispel some generalizations you had about men, at least a little. I won't suggest you vent to random dudes online -because you're right that there are a lot of misery spirals and assholes on the internet-, but it's a good idea to be open to people who share your passions, regardless of gender.

This course probably won't be the miracle you wanted, but I hope you keep the good experiences that may come out of it and continue searching for spaces where you can feel happy, I'm sure they exist.

Tobias 1115~8M

Thanks for commenting! I want to say first in case anything else I say comes across as annoyed or dismissive or something, which isn't my intention.

The main thing I was hoping to get across in this post and the previous one - though based on the comments I don't seem to have done a good job of it - was that I hope to find 'my people' because I know I can interact easily and positively with them. I know what I'm looking for, and what I'm good at. It's just frustratingly difficult to find.

More and more these days I'm wondering whether the biggest personality factor that sets me apart from others is the Big Five trait called Openness, which is related to curiosity, creativity, and a general detachment from the familiar world. Head in the clouds, versus people at the other end of the trait who are more firmly rooted on the ground. The Viscereal/Abstral elements in my recent games are based on Openness.

Artists generally are towards the same end of the Openness spectrum as myself, and I've been thinking a lot recently about how they might be 'my people', if anyone is. I spent much of my formative years on deviantART, and met my only ever (but now obviously ex) girlfriend there.

I tried going to local meet-up groups a few years back hoping to meet arty weirdos locally... but they were full of people decades older than me who were more into painting watercolour landscapes on easels than digitally drawing dragons. There's an art class that runs weekly in the community centre directly next to my house, and I watch the people arriving for it from my kitchen window. They all look like grey-haired grandmothers.

I recently joined some art-related communities on Reddit, but - like most of Reddit - most commenters seem to be beginners in their teens and early twenties, and I generally dislike Reddit's culture and anonymity, so I've yet to strike gold there yet.

On deviantART, you posted your art to your profile, and could look at others' profiles and look through their galleries. I formed connections by doing that and becoming familiar with individual artists. Everything these days though seems to be social media feeds with an endless stream of new content, and it all feels so ephemeral and harder to develop familiarity with anyone, at least for me.

I keep thinking of forming some cosy community for people I feel I could get along with, some small village kind of thing where we all really get familiar with one another, but past experiences make me very aware that keeping the peace would mean constant stress for me.

Thanks for commenting! I want to say first in case anything else I say comes across as annoyed or dismissive or something, which isn't my intention.

The main thing I was hoping to get across in this post and the previous one - though based on the comments I don't seem to have done a good job of it - was that I hope to find 'my people' because I know I can interact easily and positively with them. I know what I'm looking for, and what I'm good at. It's just frustratingly difficult to find.

More and more these days I'm wondering whether the biggest personality factor that sets me apart from others is the Big Five trait called Openness, which is related to curiosity, creativity, and a general detachment from the familiar world. Head in the clouds, versus people at the other end of the trait who are more firmly rooted on the ground. The Viscereal/Abstral elements in my recent games are based on Openness.

Artists generally are towards the same end of the Openness spectrum as myself, and I've been thinking a lot recently about how they might be 'my people', if anyone is. I spent much of my formative years on deviantART, and met my only ever (but now obviously ex) girlfriend there.

I tried going to local meet-up groups a few years back hoping to meet arty weirdos locally... but they were full of people decades older than me who were more into painting watercolour landscapes on easels than digitally drawing dragons. There's an art class that runs weekly in the community centre directly next to my house, and I watch the people arriving for it from my kitchen window. They all look like grey-haired grandmothers.

I recently joined some art-related communities on Reddit, but - like most of Reddit - most commenters seem to be beginners in their teens and early twenties, and I generally dislike Reddit's culture and anonymity, so I've yet to strike gold there yet.

On deviantART, you posted your art to your profile, and could look at others' profiles and look through their galleries. I formed connections by doing that and becoming familiar with individual artists. Everything these days though seems to be social media feeds with an endless stream of new content, and it all feels so ephemeral and harder to develop familiarity with anyone, at least for me.

I keep thinking of forming some cosy community for people I feel I could get along with, some small village kind of thing where we all really get familiar with one another, but past experiences make me very aware that keeping the peace would mean constant stress for me.

Davkett9~8M

First of all, I don't think you come across as annoyed or dismissive, so don't worry about that.

When I wrote my original post I did think about the potential obstacles you mentioned, that some art forms tend to attract people you may not be very interested in meeting, like old people drawing landscapes on easels.

So I was going to specify that you could look for digital art courses which would certainly attract people more similar to you. They would probably skew a bit young as you said, but there are a lot of people in their late 20s and early 30s who are also interested in that.

The ideal would be if it were presential, not a lot of interaction opportunities in an online thing. I don't know how easy it would be to find something like that since I think you've mentioned before that you live in a small town with mostly old people, but who knows, there's always interesting stuff going on in the places we live that we never know of.

You're right that online communities have changed a lot since the time forums were the main online medium for socialization. Connections in modern social media are way more ephemeral and superficial, but it's not impossible to make deep and lasting connections, just harder.

I don't think the idea of trying to build a community again is a bad one, it's completely possible to foster a positive environment while having a couple of trusted moderators to help you deal with the odd asshole.

Or if you don't want to deal with the stress of managing that, you could look for already existing little cozy artist communities, they surely exist, you aren't the first person to long for those kinds of spaces.

Reading back on what I wrote it doesn't sound all that useful, sorry about that. I really hope you find what you're looking for.

First of all, I don't think you come across as annoyed or dismissive, so don't worry about that.

When I wrote my original post I did think about the potential obstacles you mentioned, that some art forms tend to attract people you may not be very interested in meeting, like old people drawing landscapes on easels.

So I was going to specify that you could look for digital art courses which would certainly attract people more similar to you. They would probably skew a bit young as you said, but there are a lot of people in their late 20s and early 30s who are also interested in that.

The ideal would be if it were presential, not a lot of interaction opportunities in an online thing. I don't know how easy it would be to find something like that since I think you've mentioned before that you live in a small town with mostly old people, but who knows, there's always interesting stuff going on in the places we live that we never know of.

You're right that online communities have changed a lot since the time forums were the main online medium for socialization. Connections in modern social media are way more ephemeral and superficial, but it's not impossible to make deep and lasting connections, just harder.

I don't think the idea of trying to build a community again is a bad one, it's completely possible to foster a positive environment while having a couple of trusted moderators to help you deal with the odd asshole.

Or if you don't want to deal with the stress of managing that, you could look for already existing little cozy artist communities, they surely exist, you aren't the first person to long for those kinds of spaces.

Reading back on what I wrote it doesn't sound all that useful, sorry about that. I really hope you find what you're looking for.

astralwolf92~8M

Are you looking for female friends or a partner? Both require different strategies, and conflating the two objectives can lead to dissapointment. I might be misreading, but imagining every attractive woman as a potential partner is a bad strategy.

Tobias 1115~8M

For me, a romantic connection could only ever be an evolved form of friendship. Going from strangers to lovers feels repulsive to me. This wouldn't mean I'd expect all friendships to lead to romance. The friends I already have are all female and I don't feel that kind of attraction towards them.

astralwolf92~8M

I see. Going from friends to a romantic partnership is indeed taking the more difficult road. Trying to befriend someone explicitly will harm your chances of establishing a romantic connection with them (the famous friendzone). Trying to befriend someone whom you secretly aim to make a romantic move on is even worse. Most success comes from lighthearted but clear flirting from the get go, signalling that you’re interested in something more than just friendship. It has to happen early in the establishment of the relationship.

Not to say it’s impossible, but this is adding another layer of difficulty on top of all the difficulties the typical man already faces when courting women

Tama_Yoshi82~8M

I don't find it objectionable that you feel picky about who you attract.

=> In a group of a thousand people, only 3 of which would lead to a good experience. All others would lead to a negative experience.
=> I'll pick at random from the pile! Don't be picky now!

Likewise, I'm not sure you "should" alter your expectations. Your expectations seem somewhat reasonable. You often complain about the possibility to meet people out of your social group. Then it happens. The only circumstances where your expectations were not explicitly met were concerning fairly minor details - as far as I can tell.

Perhaps what you meant, was that there's "expectations" and then there's "hope" (that would be the 3 in a thousand). The hope is probably also reasonable, though it hinges on a somewhat unlikely chance happening. It also seems pretty clear that the reason you "stick your hand in the fire" is because you're looking for that lottery ticket. Maybe you shouldn't get your hopes up to get disappointed, or, more simply, maybe you shouldn't burn your hand for a mere lottery ticket. But what if it won though!!6!?!?

Maybe you "should" be committed to a mental hospital, maybe not. That's the kind of question to ask your therapist. You are definitely in a difficult situation, so radical measures are not beyond reason.

Does this feel like advice? It's strange. I'm basically affirming your judgment, so that shouldn't feel like advice... Yet I'm also somewhat "contradicting" your uncertainties. I wonder how you feel about it. For me, the issue is that I don't know what you don't talk about, so the more specific I get, the more presumptuous I become. I'll try to clarify what I mean here.

There definitely is some kind of negative feedback loop that "shackles" you... Social isolation, social ineptitude, negative social encounters, self-judgment, social anxiety.

A lot of these are complex and could be picked apart. I will spit-ball.

Social isolation is a strange creature when you're an intelligent internet dweller. You're obviously very good at expressing yourself through writing. Though you doubt yourself, your thought is structured and sensical. The "social" isolation then results more from generally being able to deal with yourself in the immediate presence of others; that's harder to learn on the internet (though I suppose it can happen using various kinds of social platforms). A lot of people socialize online and probably find more meaningful connections online than in their immediate real-life encounters; sometimes our neighbors suck.

Social ineptitude can also be practiced, or taught... Some basic stuff like the FORD approach to small talk (friendship, occupation/job, recreation/hobbies, dreams). But sometimes the "ineptitude" is more a result of personality or mood (see my example of being focused and hard to interest in my previous comment), which is then more about navigating that aspect of yourself. It's difficult to pick apart who "you" are and what socialization you can "learn" without changing yourself, at least in the abstract (though I suppose most - good - social advice is not that). ALSO, importantly, is the question of whether your mind blames you vs other people in negative encounters, and why, and whether you can even wrestle with that. I wouldn't be surprised if AvPDs have a negative-social-self-schema, though I'm not well read on this stuff enough to say anything about it (could you imagine yourself being socially apt, or does it come off as "not you?").

Negative social interactions... If only you could find the right people. Indeed! What if? I wonder what that would even look like. If you met your ideal friend (or lover), what would your anxiety do? Could you even connect with them, or would the inner voices prohibit this? Is the problem that people are assholes, or is it that you can't tell the right ones from the bad ones? The answer is probably a bit of both... I don't know that I share X with person Y, until it's brought up. I don't know that Y is having a bad day, and that they're angry at everyone by default, not just me. I don't know that Y just "hates men" for Z reason, for no fault of my own. And so on. People are weird. You use a lot of implicit social indicators to sort yourself as an out-group (age, with children, not mentally afflicted). I wonder, in your case, if this is not a shorthand for how "hot the fire burns," as opposed to a conclusion of an impossibility of a good connection. The shorthand would make sense, to be clear... though I wonder if you could imagine connecting with someone who is altogether different from you, except for a few very specific commonalities... or whether the need for connection is more of a need to find someone like-minded, in that specific way that makes you feel like not the only human being in your condition (though, what condition is that? Does it need to be all of it?).

For self-judgment and social anxiety, I guess it really depends if the above points can be even approached. If it is the case that you can't navigate social ambiguity, at all - if the issue isn't that everyone is just an asshole - if the issue isn't that you don't know some simple social trick to get ahead in conversations - then maybe the solution is something closer to medication. It doesn't have to be permanent, but in principle it would allow you to socialize without burning your hand, and it could lead to breaking the cycle of social anxiety.

So, this is what I meant; I don't know what you don't talk about (the ways you approach conversation, your process to assign blame to yourself vs others, which approach to conversations are so "not you" that you would never attempt them, which approach to conversations are forbidden out of cheer apprehension, which social interactions NOT related to conversation are meaningful, what exactly do you seek in social interactions and could you be satisfied with only a partial connection).

Hopefully this is digestible and doesn't come off as too heavy-handed...! I suppose you don't often get comments asking for MORE details about your mind dumps!

I don't find it objectionable that you feel picky about who you attract.

=> In a group of a thousand people, only 3 of which would lead to a good experience. All others would lead to a negative experience.
=> I'll pick at random from the pile! Don't be picky now!

Likewise, I'm not sure you "should" alter your expectations. Your expectations seem somewhat reasonable. You often complain about the possibility to meet people out of your social group. Then it happens. The only circumstances where your expectations were not explicitly met were concerning fairly minor details - as far as I can tell.

Perhaps what you meant, was that there's "expectations" and then there's "hope" (that would be the 3 in a thousand). The hope is probably also reasonable, though it hinges on a somewhat unlikely chance happening. It also seems pretty clear that the reason you "stick your hand in the fire" is because you're looking for that lottery ticket. Maybe you shouldn't get your hopes up to get disappointed, or, more simply, maybe you shouldn't burn your hand for a mere lottery ticket. But what if it won though!!6!?!?

Maybe you "should" be committed to a mental hospital, maybe not. That's the kind of question to ask your therapist. You are definitely in a difficult situation, so radical measures are not beyond reason.

Does this feel like advice? It's strange. I'm basically affirming your judgment, so that shouldn't feel like advice... Yet I'm also somewhat "contradicting" your uncertainties. I wonder how you feel about it. For me, the issue is that I don't know what you don't talk about, so the more specific I get, the more presumptuous I become. I'll try to clarify what I mean here.

There definitely is some kind of negative feedback loop that "shackles" you... Social isolation, social ineptitude, negative social encounters, self-judgment, social anxiety.

A lot of these are complex and could be picked apart. I will spit-ball.

Social isolation is a strange creature when you're an intelligent internet dweller. You're obviously very good at expressing yourself through writing. Though you doubt yourself, your thought is structured and sensical. The "social" isolation then results more from generally being able to deal with yourself in the immediate presence of others; that's harder to learn on the internet (though I suppose it can happen using various kinds of social platforms). A lot of people socialize online and probably find more meaningful connections online than in their immediate real-life encounters; sometimes our neighbors suck.

Social ineptitude can also be practiced, or taught... Some basic stuff like the FORD approach to small talk (friendship, occupation/job, recreation/hobbies, dreams). But sometimes the "ineptitude" is more a result of personality or mood (see my example of being focused and hard to interest in my previous comment), which is then more about navigating that aspect of yourself. It's difficult to pick apart who "you" are and what socialization you can "learn" without changing yourself, at least in the abstract (though I suppose most - good - social advice is not that). ALSO, importantly, is the question of whether your mind blames you vs other people in negative encounters, and why, and whether you can even wrestle with that. I wouldn't be surprised if AvPDs have a negative-social-self-schema, though I'm not well read on this stuff enough to say anything about it (could you imagine yourself being socially apt, or does it come off as "not you?").

Negative social interactions... If only you could find the right people. Indeed! What if? I wonder what that would even look like. If you met your ideal friend (or lover), what would your anxiety do? Could you even connect with them, or would the inner voices prohibit this? Is the problem that people are assholes, or is it that you can't tell the right ones from the bad ones? The answer is probably a bit of both... I don't know that I share X with person Y, until it's brought up. I don't know that Y is having a bad day, and that they're angry at everyone by default, not just me. I don't know that Y just "hates men" for Z reason, for no fault of my own. And so on. People are weird. You use a lot of implicit social indicators to sort yourself as an out-group (age, with children, not mentally afflicted). I wonder, in your case, if this is not a shorthand for how "hot the fire burns," as opposed to a conclusion of an impossibility of a good connection. The shorthand would make sense, to be clear... though I wonder if you could imagine connecting with someone who is altogether different from you, except for a few very specific commonalities... or whether the need for connection is more of a need to find someone like-minded, in that specific way that makes you feel like not the only human being in your condition (though, what condition is that? Does it need to be all of it?).

For self-judgment and social anxiety, I guess it really depends if the above points can be even approached. If it is the case that you can't navigate social ambiguity, at all - if the issue isn't that everyone is just an asshole - if the issue isn't that you don't know some simple social trick to get ahead in conversations - then maybe the solution is something closer to medication. It doesn't have to be permanent, but in principle it would allow you to socialize without burning your hand, and it could lead to breaking the cycle of social anxiety.

So, this is what I meant; I don't know what you don't talk about (the ways you approach conversation, your process to assign blame to yourself vs others, which approach to conversations are so "not you" that you would never attempt them, which approach to conversations are forbidden out of cheer apprehension, which social interactions NOT related to conversation are meaningful, what exactly do you seek in social interactions and could you be satisfied with only a partial connection).

Hopefully this is digestible and doesn't come off as too heavy-handed...! I suppose you don't often get comments asking for MORE details about your mind dumps!

Laprilla14~8M

I grew up as pretty much a social outcast myself and spent most of my adult life feeling like that as well. As a kid, I remember playing by myself on the playground because I had one friend and her recess was at a different time than mine. I have often had the feeling of being alone in a crowd, knowing that if I had one friend with me I would be able to relax and not care what anyone else thinks about me anymore.

I've also had people exclude me with their body language (even by literally standing in front of me when we're in a circle) and then tell me I'm not supposed to interpret them that way... It's confusing. I have come to suspect I have ASD because of stuff like this. Also making eye-contact is hard for me and always has been... stuff like that. I don't know. It's pretty common for people with ASD to feel really alien and different from others as well. Not that I'm a doctor, but it seems worth considering.

Tobias 1115~8M

A lot of (especially nonverbal) social behaviours are largely subconscious and unintentional, so people who deny a particular interpretation might be unaware themselves that that's what they were communicating.

It's all down to the early socialisation we get when we're children. People properly 'trained' are all easily able to perform the acceptable dance, but for those of us for whom that training was lacking, it's just not baked into us to manifest without thought like it does for them.

Was your childhood rough, or did you come from a broken home? (Did I ask you that in response to some other comment?? Can't recall.)

I'm assuming by ASD you mean autism, and I've wondered about whether I have that for years, always concluding that no, that's not the species of issue that I have. I don't have the characteristic blindness to social cues, and I've known people who do have that and always considered their behaviour very different from my own. What I have is more likely Avoidant Personality Disorder as a result of poor socialisation at an early age.

It's all down to the early socialisation we get when we're children. People properly 'trained' are all easily able to perform the acceptable dance, but for those of us for whom that training was lacking, it's just not baked into us to manifest without thought like it does for them.

Was your childhood rough, or did you come from a broken home? (Did I ask you that in response to some other comment?? Can't recall.)

I'm assuming by ASD you mean autism, and I've wondered about whether I have that for years, always concluding that no, that's not the species of issue that I have. I don't have the characteristic blindness to social cues, and I've known people who /do/ have that and always considered their behaviour very different from my own. What I have is more likely Avoidant Personality Disorder as a result of poor socialisation at an early age.

Laprilla14~8M

My childhood was mostly good. I don't think you asked that before. My parents got divorced when I was young, but they co-parented without fighting, and both of them were in my life while I grew up. I *felt* like a black sheep in my family from a very young age, but my family largely denied that when I told them years later how I felt. But my mom told me she feels I was neglected at a young age. In my opinion, she had her hands full with responsibilities and couldn't do it all, and then my siblings kind of grouped up and did their own things, leaving my alone sometimes without my mom realizing.

Other than that, my family life is and was pretty good. Now it's better than it's ever been because I finally started opening up to them about how I feel and got feedback from them that they do love me and want me to feel included in things and listened to and what-not. I think that alone actually fixed a lot of my issues. I'm getting more confident with strangers as a result, and therefore I'm acting less awkward, projecting more confidence (which I think makes people tend to like me more or put them at ease or something), and getting less bothered or personally offended by little slights -- or what seem like slights at least.

And to be honest, me taking medication (Abilify specifically, so an anti-psych, not Tylenol) is helping my mood tremendously. I noticed that without it or when I forget to take it, I was much more sensitive and therefore more likely to cause friction with my family, which could turn into a negative feedback loop that makes the problem worse instead of better. Not saying everyone with emotional sensitivities needs to medicate, but maybe sometimes it could be a good idea. Maybe even just temporarily.

I don't 100% relate to people who have autism either, but I connect with a lot of it. My brother believes he has autism, and others of us in my family seem to have clear autistic traits at least. Maybe not enough to get diagnosed, though.

People can have a combination of conditions, too. But if you think the shoe doesn't fit then you're probably right. I just felt like it needed to be said. I've heard that people with autism are often treated by neurotypical people with some amount of... fear maybe or disdain. But maybe it's AvPD instead like you say. In that case, maybe people don't dislike you and you just feel that they do? Maybe it's just that your social skills are rusty.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, by the way. I hope you feel less alone in the world. I do.

Other than that, my family life is and was pretty good. Now it's better than it's ever been because I finally started opening up to them about how I feel and got feedback from them that they do love me and want me to feel included in things and listened to and what-not. I think that alone actually fixed a lot of my issues. I'm getting more confident with strangers as a result, and therefore I'm acting less awkward, projecting more confidence (which I think makes people tend to like me more or put them at ease or something), and getting less bothered or personally offended by little slights -- or what seem like slights at least.

And to be honest, me taking medication (Abilify specifically, so an anti-psych, not Tylenol) is helping my mood tremendously. I noticed that without it or when I forget to take it, I was much more sensitive and therefore more likely to cause friction with my family, which could turn into a negative feedback loop that makes the problem worse instead of better. Not saying everyone with emotional sensitivities needs to medicate, but maybe sometimes it could be a good idea. Maybe even just temporarily.

I don't 100% relate to people who have autism either, but I connect with a lot of it. My brother believes he has autism, and others of us in my family seem to have clear autistic traits at least. Maybe not enough to get diagnosed, though.

People can have a combination of conditions, too. But if you think the shoe doesn't fit then you're probably right. I just felt like it needed to be said. I've heard that people with autism are often treated by neurotypical people with some amount of... fear maybe or disdain. But maybe it's AvPD instead like you say. In that case, maybe people don't dislike you and you just feel that they do? Maybe it's just that your social skills are rusty.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, by the way. I hope you feel less alone in the world. I do.

purplerabbits147~8M

It's been a while since I last commented but one thing that stuck out to me in a previous blog is that you could have mild ADHD, which is something that I can relate to.

One thing that I noticed with your interaction is that the rejection you feel hurts, to a degree that can patially be explained by ADHD. Rejection Sensitivity is not an official criteria of ADHD, but there is a disproportionate number of people who have ADHD and Rejection Sensitivity. For myself, i need to remind myself that internal thoughts have a startingly high degree of inaccuracy and to not take everything so personally. Other people live their lives and they don't spend the same amount of energy worrying about me as I worry about what I think of them. So, I should spend the same amount of energy and save myself the worry.

On a slightly related note, I recently listened to Dr. K talk about "The Cycle of Depression," where he notes that for people with Depression, they get into cycles of negative thoughts that arise from their percieved negative ineractions. It's eye opening, as he describes how people internally keep "score" on how their day is going and how our own perception of a good, neutral, and negative event change when we are depressed or not.

In his example, he notes that if a person objectively have a day with 1 positive moment, 1 neutral moment, and 1 negative moment, The notmal person would wee that day as a +1 for the positive moment, a +0 for the neutral moment, and finally a -1 for the negative moment. That all leads to a 0 for the normal person's day. In contrast, the depressed person sees the positive as a +0, the neutral as a -1, and the negative as a -1, leading to a -2 for their day. And so the perception of the same event can lead a Depressed person down a negative spiral, but it can be inturupted by actively reframing those -1 neutrals to be the +0's to "increase" the score.

[LINK] Here is the link if you would like to hear from Dr. K himself. I can only summarize what I thought was important, and well, telling something second hand may miss something that's significant for you.

Since I also have depression and struggle to accept positive words, I am a bit of a hypocrite for saying this, but I sincerely am cheering for you and rooting for your success. I hope that you can allow yourself to accept the positive words even though the negative thoughts seem overwhelming.

It's been a while since I last commented but one thing that stuck out to me in a previous blog is that you could have mild ADHD, which is something that I can relate to.

One thing that I noticed with your interaction is that the rejection you feel hurts, to a degree that can patially be explained by ADHD. Rejection Sensitivity is not an official criteria of ADHD, but there is a disproportionate number of people who have ADHD and Rejection Sensitivity. For myself, i need to remind myself that internal thoughts have a startingly high degree of inaccuracy and to not take everything so personally. Other people live their lives and they don't spend the same amount of energy worrying about me as I worry about what I think of them.  So, I should spend the same amount of energy and save myself the worry.

On a slightly related note, I recently listened to Dr. K talk about "The Cycle of Depression," where he notes that for people with Depression, they get into cycles of negative thoughts that arise from their percieved negative ineractions. It's eye opening, as he describes how people internally keep "score" on how their day is going and how our own perception of a good, neutral, and negative event change when we are depressed or not.

In his example, he notes that if a person objectively have a day with 1 positive moment, 1 neutral moment, and 1 negative moment, The notmal person would wee that day as a +1 for the positive moment, a +0 for the neutral moment, and finally a -1 for the negative moment. That all leads to a 0 for the normal person's day. In contrast, the depressed person sees the positive as a +0, the neutral as a -1, and the negative as a -1, leading to a -2 for their day. And so the perception of the same event can lead a Depressed person down a negative spiral, but it can be inturupted by actively reframing those -1 neutrals to be the +0's to "increase" the score.

https://youtu.be/Cv3bj1M96fQ?si=DufNUoDzL9NHy8FL. Here is the link if you would like to hear from Dr. K himself. I can only summarize what I thought was important, and well, telling something second hand may miss something that's significant for you.

Since I also have depression and struggle to accept positive words, I am a bit of a hypocrite for saying this, but I sincerely am cheering for you and rooting for your success. I hope that you can allow yourself to accept the positive words even though the negative thoughts seem overwhelming.

capnbunnypaws11~8M

"My pickiness about who I'd want to connect with probably comes across as equally objectionable. It's born from a desire to avoid feeling - or causing - pain, though, rather than some objective condemnation of particular groups' value."

Sorry in case I misread, I just woke up.

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid pain, as relationships are complex and people won't always agree with each other. This is normal. Even the closest of friends will go through pain from time to time.

What matters the most is how we deal with this pain in a healthy way for both parties. You can't avoid it, but you can make it so you both navigate and overcome it.

And with this I am not refering to fighting or falling out. Me and my husband rarely (if ever) fight, but we do disagree or have a bad day at times. We're also both neurodivergent and socially anxious, which is the main contributor to a lot of our miscomunications, but once we cool off, we have a conversation about it and everything's fine.

Have you thought of getting checked for Autism? Social Anxiety can develop if things go untreated for long. Turns out a lot of my anxiety and social issues come from autism/ADHD that went untreated/undiagnosed for a long time.
There are plenty of people like us out there, it's just a lot of us are also reclusive or mask it when going outside. I know I'm not as open about my weirdness until I feel safe sharing that.

P.D Girafarig is cute, but I like Furret more.

Sorry in case I misread, I just woke up.

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid pain, as relationships are complex and people won't always agree with each other. This is normal. Even the closest of friends will go through pain from time to time.

What matters the most is how we deal with this pain in a healthy way for both parties. You can't avoid it, but you can make it so you both navigate and overcome it.

And with this I am not refering to fighting or falling out. Me and my husband rarely (if ever) fight, but we do disagree or have a bad day at times. We're also both neurodivergent and socially anxious, which is the main contributor to a lot of our miscomunications, but once we cool off, we have a conversation about it and everything's fine.

Have you thought of getting checked for Autism? Social Anxiety can develop if things go untreated for long. Turns out a lot of my anxiety and social issues come from autism/ADHD that went untreated/undiagnosed for a long time. 
There are plenty of people like us out there, it's just a lot of us are also reclusive or mask it when going outside. I know I'm not as open about my weirdness until I feel safe sharing that.

P.D Girafarig is cute, but I like Furret more.