Alora Fane

Here's a drastic thing: I'm considering completely changing the way that battles work in Divine Dreams!

(I've added an UPDATE at the bottom of the post!)

Regarding the MARDEK Steam release, I've requested a couple of beta keys so then we can find out if it all works, though it tells me it might take up to 72 hours to actually receive them. I still need to do some other stuff too, but I'll continue updating the (surprisingly popular) purple post with updates about that. Check its Edited date!

There's not much more I can do with that at the moment, so here's a post about Divine Dreams, the MARDEK Reimagining.

I'm finally returning to Divine Dreams after spending a few weeks consumed by both the MARDEK Steam release and depression. I'm looking forward to getting some new stuff done!

In ∞ the demo video ∞, you can see the battle mechanics as they are currently. People commented on certain issues that became clear from this - for example, Emeela focusing on lowering Mind being essentially useless in the boss battle - and I definitely noticed them myself while playing through the thing.

I like the Body/Mind system conceptually, as it ties into the overarching narrative themes and I feel it's unique and interesting, but I think the approach could be improved.

A few days ago, I was struck with the sort of exciting inspiration that makes sleep feel like a horrible obstacle because I just want to focus completely on bringing my ideas into being. Such a thrill on the rare occasions it happens! (It's definitely possible to be in a Creation-flavoured mood!)

It was spurred by spending a few minutes rearranging ∞ the Games page ∞, since I felt I should move MARDEK higher up and add Divine Dreams (I forget that page exists, but it gets a surprising amount of traffic, stats show; maybe because fighunter.com is set to redirect to it). This required removing Belief from the top position, and while doing that I longingly watched ∞ the demo video I made of that ∞.

I really like what I did with that game; I think the 'battle' system is far more interesting than Divine Dreams', though it's also quite slow and abstract so it lacks the visceral thrill. I'd still like to get back to the game if Divine Dreams does well enough to warrant a prequel, though I got thinking about how I could use some of the ideas from it to replace some that aren't working with what I've got currently for DD.

Before I settled on the Body/Mind dichotomy, I tried to make a battle system which was a compromise between MARDEK's straight fantasy and Belief's approach to make something more cerebral and 'non-violent'. I wrote about it in ∞ this post ∞.

Essentially, HP took the form of a bar of light and darkness, with characters' bars being light and monsters' being dark. You used 'weapons of light' - and the monsters used 'weapons of dark' - to change the 'valence' (lightness/darkness) of this bar, so you weren't really killing monsters, you were just 'turning their darkness to light'. Or something.

You could also cast spells to convert your targets, as in Belief. This made use of the 'runes' system I've been attempting to give a home since Taming Dreams.

I only worked on it very briefly, and it wasn't well-received. I didn't care for it either, I found. The light/dark weapons thing felt contrived and unnecessary, and all 'sentimancy' affecting a rapport bar felt limited.

Still... The idea I find myself returning to is similar in some ways. Though I'd say it's more like a better compromise between the 'violent' action of MARDEK's battle system and the cerebral personal conversion of Belief. I've not implemented it since I wanted to run it by people first, though I have made some UI mock-ups, eg:

I don't like overly busy UIs, but I don't like overly spartan ones either (like many Final Fantasies, which just have the PCs' HP number and name, and nothing else). I like the feeling of having each character represented by a really clear UI element with the same aesthetic appeal as, say, a trading card, with a few key stats clearly highlighted and an obvious health bar. It's a mentality I've had throughout essentially all the games I've ever made!

I quite like the circles I had before, though they feel quite lifeless. A whole lot of JRPGs have battle UIs that integrate portraits of their characters in some way (though it's usually the generic-feeling ones that do this), and I think that adds something important that makes them feel more like characters and less like battle units. In MARDEK, I had sprites of the characters on their status displays for this reason.

I had the same in Taming Dreams.

I've considered making pixel sprites of the characters for Divine Dreams to use in the battle UI like this, though I played around with a few different layouts, and nothing looked any good. I wondered whether to use the sprite for the mood icon in some way, though it made no sense to include a whole-body sprite with a tiny, indistinct face if I were to do that as it'd drastically limit the potential for expression.

I really like what I've decided on here, aesthetically. It integrates a depiction of the character, but it's kind of like a schematic of their whole being, with labels (mostly) in appropriate physical places. The body stat (HP) is actually represented in the body section here, the arousal heart is where a heart might be, the emoting face sits on top, and a halo around that represents the state of the mind.

But I suppose I should actually explain the mechanics I have in mind to make sense of this!

Body

As before, HP will be called Body, though this time it's only used as pure HP rather than offensively or as a cost for skill use.

This would be the core of the simple 'violence'-based battle mechanics. Characters have Attack and Defence stats, which are determined by equipment. Unlike previously where weapons were rare and each had its own skill, here I'm thinking they could just be more like MARDEK's, with a simple Attack stat, maybe some extras like effectiveness against certain types, and an element. Different weapons might have different Reaction effects too; I'll need to give that more thought.

Characters all have a basic Attack command, like in MARDEK, which simply deals damage equal to the attacker's Attack command minus the defender's Defence, modified based on elemental resistances and any additional bonuses.

Both Attack and Defence could be buffed or debuffed, eg a skill might "increase Attack by 1 point" (the numbers would be kept quite low).

Depleting a monster's Body kills it. When a party member's Body is depleted, they fall down and must be revived by a special spell or item.

It'd be restored with either food (which I already have, but which might just be an unnecessary complication), or standard potions. Or healing spells.

So it's all essentially familiar stuff, which should allow for straightforward action-based gameplay if that's what the player wants.

Mind - Light and Dark

This is where I've made the most revisions.

Mind - which could also be called Mental Health, or even Sanity - is depicted by the halo around the creature's head in the UI. Creatures just have a singular Mind stat, behind the scenes, but it's shown as two separate stats: Light and Dark (with Light just being total - Dark). That is, Dark and Light can't be increased or reduced without affecting the other in the opposite direction.

Characters would start fully light (sort of), while opponents would start fully dark. If characters became fully dark, I'm unsure of what they'd do; either they'd become incapacitated - but still selectable and healable with normal means, unlike with KO - or, perhaps more interestingly, they could enter a berserk state where they target their allies randomly, like the typical confusion status; they 'succumb to madness', or 'become a monster themselves'. That'd explain the human enemies you fought. (Maybe it could depend on the character - Steele becomes enraged, Emeela falls into despair - though that might be unnecessarily complicated.)

If monsters become fully light, then they convert to your party, and move across the battle to fight by your side, like in Belief. If turned back fully dark, they revert and return to their original side. While they're on your side, you can control them like any character. If they're still on your party when all dark allies are defeated or converted, they turn into an item or something (I've not decided yet). They don't stay with you. Bosses couldn't be converted, but they could be 'appeased', which would count as their defeat and which might alter some plot stuff in probably minor ways probably similar to the Gope thing from MARDEK.

Elemancy ('magic') can be either Light or Dark (kind of like Black and White magic). Dark spells use the Dark stat as their power, Light spells use the Light stat (so they're effectively both using different parts of the Mind stat).

They also have a cost, which shifts the user's mind in that direction; eg Hate might cost 3 dark, so it makes Emeela's Dark increase by 3 and her Light decrease by 3. Repeatedly using dark magic would make your spells increasingly powerful, but would also drive you closer to madness.

Spells would also be either Physical (or a better word not evocative of athletics; 'Material'?) and Mental. Both have the same costs and Mind-shifting effects on the user, but the Physical ones damage the target's Body while the Mental ones shift the target's Mind towards Light or Dark.

Mental spells (but not Physical/Material ones) would use the runes to determine their effectiveness, and would have a rune of their own. These would work the same was as in Taming Dreams and Belief: matching similar runes would produce greater effects. For example, the first rune is Abstract/Real, with the possible values A a x r R. An A character using an A spell on a target with an R rune in that slot would be very ineffective because it'd be like a bohemian asking a salt-of-the-earth farmer who his favourite avant garde jazz fusion bongoist was.

I'm thinking that Mental spells could be common among most characters - not just traditionally spellcaster types - to give everyone a chance to tame their enemies in their own personal way. Almost all of them would be Light, while Body-damaging spells would be Dark and probably more limited in who had access to them.

All spells also have elements, as do all creatures.

Characters' Mind would be lightened largely by the effects of concords, which I'll keep similar to how they already are. For example, when characters take a turn, allies they share a high concord with might Cheer them on, shifting their mind towards Light. Items and spells could also lighten minds. Monsters' could use spells to darken Mind, not infrequently, and using dark spells would also darken Mind.

Arousal

This is what was called 'excitement' in Taming Dreams and Belief. It's represented by the beating heart, which is larger, faster, and warmer-coloured the higher the arousal. 'Arousal' is a psychological/medical term for what this is, but maybe most gamers would read that as 'sexual arousal', so I might have to use 'excitement' instead (though it's not like that doesn't have similar connotations).

Arousal is a percentage between 0% and 100%, which is effectively functionally the same for every creature. That is, you can't 'increase max arousal' (though maybe some items could reduce the impact of arousal-changing skills on a character).

Like in Belief, spells are available for certain ranges of arousal. Emeela might have to be highly aroused before she can cast Hate, but if her arousal is very low, Despair would be available instead. Here's how that looked in Belief:

Arousal also determines speed; the faster a character's heart beats, the more quickly they get their next turn. So character's don't have a base speed value, as such, though they do have a starting value for arousal which would at least determine who acts first.

Skills could calm or rouse to alter arousal.

In Taming Dreams and Belief, arousal/excitement also affected the potency of abilities: high arousal meant more 'damage' delivered, but also more received. I could do that too, but maybe it'd be unnecessarily overcomplicating things.

Equipment and Skills

In the current version, characters can equip a weapon, shield, outfit, four mementos, and six essences. That'd stay the same, though unlike in the original, the weapon and shield would just have associated stats rather than skills.

I'm wondering whether to separate skills and equipment, so skills are bound to mementos, but they're equipped on a separate screen. Accessories could be equipped in their place then, which could have effects similar to the ones in MARDEK. That might be more appealing to players, especially since it'd mean accessories could be more readily acquired and given to a character of your choice.

The essences would of course grant different buffs since the stats are different now. Perhaps their primary effects would be mental, while equipment would be primarily Body-affecting. One possibility is that while Body wounds persist between battles, Mind resets at the start of every battle, and essences can add points to Light or Dark, determining the Mind's starting state.

Moods

This would be very similar to how it already is. Essentially, characters could have one mood at a time, and each mood is associated with an element. For example, being affected by the Creation mood, Inspired, would empower Creation abilities both offensively and defensively; that is, the character could use Creation skills more effectively, but they'd be hit harder by them too.

Additionally, moods would clamp arousal to a certain range. For example, someone who's Depressed wouldn't be able to raise their arousal above the lower levels.

The six elemental moods and their effects are:

Brave (Courage)
Doesn't clamp arousal
1 in 3 chance for physical attacks to be critical hits (they otherwise never are)

Panic (Fear)
Clamps arousal high
1 in 3 chance to skip turns

Serenity (Bliss)
Clamps arousal low
Mind moves towards Light each turn

Crazed (Destruction)
No arousal clamping
Mind moves towards Dark each turn

Inspired (Creation)
Clamps arousal high (I couldn't sleep when I was Inspired!)
Mind moves towards Light each turn

Depressed (Sorrow)
Clamps arousal low
Mind moves towards Dark each turn

I'm also thinking of adding a seventh element, Aether (as in MARDEK), which has Sleep as its mood. Sleep would clamp arousal at 0, in addition to skipping turns. It'd expire after a timer, or when physically hit. (Seems silly to make a game about dreams without a sleep effect!)

Humour

I had 'petals' as buffs/debuffs before, but with all the other mechanics, adding additional effects feels like too much. Still, I could add a few Body-specific effects since most of the others relate to Mind.

The Body stat is represented as what looks like red blood in a potion bottle, and humour statuses would change the colour of that 'blood' and have an effect; only one could be active at a time:

Poison would turn the blood green and deplete Body each turn (as you'd expect).

Regeneration would turn it bright (pink? gold? white?), and increase Body each turn.

Plague would turn it black, and prevent healing.

'Humour' was the best term I could come up with for something involving bodily fluids which could be either negative or positive, though it's obscure and confusing so I'm open to better ideas!

Species

Monsters would have up to two 'species', in the same way that I've done it in a bunch of previous games. For example, a Rabbish would be Bestial/Plantoid. The sole purpose of these would be so that certain weapons - or spells, maybe - could be particularly effective against them (eg a Silver Sword does bonus damage to Undead).

Monsters' UI would use a generic species head shaped according to their primary species and coloured according to their secondary species (it'd also be useful to have something like this to use in a turn order indicator, when I add that). Some concepts:

Those are probably not final names; "Beast" would be "Bestial", for example. Also, the shape of the 'bottle' could vary independently based on the particular monster, so not all Plants would have that base, etc.

These were just quickly copied from a 2014 version of Miasmon that I only briefly worked on. They seem fine though, and I might as well make use of the time and effort I put into deciding on them back then.

Summary

So, to summarise, with this image here again for reference, each creature has the following stats:

Body (Health)
Attack
Defence
Mind, as Light and Dark (actually one stat behind the scenes)
Arousal
Runes
Species (monsters only)

And the following actions during battle:

Attack using weapon - damages Body, can React
Spells - Light or Dark, can affect Body or Mind, availability determined by Arousal, 'cost' shifts user's Mind
Item

So yes, that's quite different!

The main aim is to give players the choice about what to do. The previous Mind/Body system never really felt like a choice, and even in games with some 'physical attack' vs 'magic attack' divide, there's often little choice other than the style of particle effects you summon up to reach the same goal (killing the enemy). With this, players would have the choice to either kill or tame their foes, and it opens up a lot of possibilities for interesting encounters (eg you have to tame a boss's respawning lackeys, who can use effective skills against the boss).

Taming monsters appeals to the part of us that enjoys Pokemon; I know I'd have absolutely loved something like this when I was younger! (And still do now.) It also appeals to the sort of minds that enjoy 'pacifist runs', I think, and opens more possibilities for playthroughs with specific rules.

Also, as I've mentioned in at least one old post, I like the idea of a dichotomy between a simple system where you just 'hit things until they fall down', and one where you have to think more carefully about how to act to get the results you want. The Body-based interactions would be straightforward, but the runes require more thought and planning to really make use of. It's like the warrior/wizard contrast in a way that's more meaningful than just choosing between hitting an opponent with a sword or with a fireball.

Lore-wise, the light/dark thing could be explained as something like "drawing upon the miasma takes a toll on the mind". I already decided years ago that monsters and this universe's magic use the same mechanics: the mind interacting with the 'miasma' forms material manifestations of the mind. Dreams made real.

I feel that this light/dark dichotomy appeals to us on a fundamental level, and a lot of games and universes have representations of it (Light Side vs Dark Side, Good vs Evil, etc). I'd like to think the way I'm exploring it here is uniquely interesting if you think about it, but has raw appeal even if you don't. And if there's objection to the idea that it's ~sissy and emotional~, I could always just call it 'sanity', which would likely activate different feelings in people's minds.

I also like the idea of integrating both physical health and mental health, since both affect us dramatically, but differently. We won't fall down dead from poor mental health exactly, but we very well could go mad.

Personally I think this would be a big step up from the Body/Mind system I've already got, but it's hard to know without implementing it and playing around with it. I'm curious to hear what you think of it in this early form though!

Oh, and I don't intend to make a habit of huge rewrites to fundamental game features like this, but if this is going to be a years-spanning series, I don't want to be stuck with a system that really should be something better.

UPDATE
I've started implementing this, so here's a screenshot of the new status menu, which I did first:

It stresses the Body/Mind divide, with six equipment slots for each, with the mind ones being all essences. Unlike before, essences work the same as normal equipment, and each equippable thing has up to six simple 'properties' which determine (and clearly show) what it does. The ones with the blue ! only activate when you hit the blue bonus section on the reaction bar. Not all possible properties are shown here (weapons could deal elemental damage, for example), but maybe this helps clarify some things.

I'll need to decide what to do (if anything) with the empty space at the bottom left.

I'll also add a separate page for skills, which will also be divided into Body and Mind columns. Body skills will all deal Body damage and won't rely on Mind (Light/Dark) stats, and Mind spells will all rely on Mind stats for their power but many will damage Body. Others will add Light for taming.

30 COMMENTS

ALazyTotodile14~5Y

It's interesting that you're bringing up humorism again--reminds me of the old days haha. But I suppose the whole light/dark system gives me humor vibes in and of itself?

I suppose I mean this with regards to "dyscrasia" which, in humorism, essentially means your humors are imbalanced, and as such, is the source of all illness. I think dyscrasia loosely translates to bad mixture or something of that sort? But I do like the idea that if light/dark become imbalanced, there is a sort of "dyscrasia" that occurs. Of course, if the characters start with an entirely *light* bar, this might have... less meaning, but. Oh well.

Anyway. This was a really interesting read! And I certainly agree that these changes would add more choice (and ultimately perhaps a tad bit more thinking in general?) to the gameplay. Though, understandably, continuing to make such impressive changes is likely taxing on you haha. Regardless, I hope things are well--

Tobias 1115~5Y

Humorism? I don't think I'm familiar with that in the way you're referring to here. I liked the four temperaments back in the day - before I knew the psychology better - but I suppose I never really looked into all the old-timey thoughts about how those 'humours' played a role in medical conditions. It's not a connotation I want to suggest with this!

I used the term 'humour' here to refer to the blood thing after looking through a thesaurus for a while, but I'm definitely not happy with it. I want something that essentially means 'state of the body/blood' but without entirely negative connotations (like 'ailment'). Maybe it doesn't need a name other than 'status effect'?

Making changes like this makes me feel more energised about the project because they feel to me like improvements! And stuff that doesn't involve graphical or music assets doesn't take too long to implement.

Maniafig222~5Y

Good to hear progress on the MARDEK beta keys is underway! What're your plans for CBC and Taming Mind once you've got MARDEK out of the way? Taming Mind especially is long overdue for a PC release!

I've had those moments of being unable to sleep due to a sudden burst of thoughts about something, be it ideas for a story or thinking about a recently bought game.

I remember the demo of Belief! I did like the idea, the whole converting enemies thing and whatnot, it certainly appeals to me more than "slashy sword go slashy".

I do remember that one light/dark combat syste suggestions for the remake. That one was weird and contrived, so I'm glad you kept tinkering with it. I also hadn't noticed before the floor tiles in that screenshot are taken from AF:C.

I've always liked the compromise option of having a simple UI which can be clicked on for an expansive complex UI, like how the old MARDEK let you click on character health bars to examine all stats, or how in Bravely Default you had the basic UI with HP and statuses, and a more in-depth one that contained all relevant data.

And I have always disliked the UI in most FF games, specifically FF3~9. Those UIs were so useless, anything more advanced that doing damage or healing had barely any visible feedback, so the game constantly pushes you to only use the most boring and generic tactics. Wah!

I do like integrating portraits into the UI, that's a good idea! What does the six-pointed star represent, though? I also notice the runes are back! I don't think those were in the previous system, right? I do like runes!!

I'm assuming there would also be physical skills alongside the basic attack? MARDEK had characters like Zach who only used physical attacks, but still had a somewhat diversified skillset that had its own specific niches.

Light and Dark... Until suddenly it turns out that was all a LIE FROM DHARMA, and the real solution is to reach an equilibrium so during the second half of the game you have to make the Light monsters Dark again, but not too Dark!!

I think it'd make sense for the effects of having Sanity depleted to differ from character to character. I suppose another option would be if they actually convert to the enemy side, quite like in Belief, then you either have to turn them Light again or physically knock them out and heal them to bring them back to their senses.

Hm, having all spells depend on being Dark or Light might get finicky, maybe that's something that should be idiosyncratic, so only some spells get a boost from having high/low Sanity?

So, I'm guessing characters can either have basic attacks, physical skills, physical spells and mental spells? And there could also be weapon-based skills that affect both Body and Mind, sorta like how Deugan got Spirit Blade which worked based off Attack, but used Spirit and MDef instead of Strenght and Def to calculate damage.

I am wondering what the best way to introduce these concepts would be? I could imagine that during the intro, Deugan's acting as the DM in his and Mardek's roleplay session, and initially Deugan's doing all the tutorializing on the plain combat, but then at some point Mardek wants to try befriending a monster instead and clumsily tutorializes himself through the process, Deugan not sure whether he likes Mardek's initiative or is annoyed by his desire to befriend everyone and everything.

"No Mardek, you can't just befriend all the Goblins!"
"Well, I still want to try!"
"Fine, but you're not befriending The Dragon!"
"Well, maybe the Goblins can try befriending The Dragon?"

I keep forgetting the game doesn't have a typical turn based gameplay but more ATB-like speed. That one is going to be difficult to balance, you won't want players getting too many turns relative to the enemy, or vice versa, since then the game stops feeling interactive. I'm worried this system's going to be too complex, rather than the simpler system in Taming Dreams where Arousal only dictated turn order but not frequency, so high Arousal wasn't necessarily better than low. Arousal already also dictates what spells you can use, so also affecting speed seems like it'll be a lot to keep track of, as well as a UI nightmare (How do you show how casting a spell is going to affect the future turn order?).

For something like Arousal, maybe only some skills depend on it? So some skills are more or less effective depending on the user's or target's arousal, but others might be unaffected by it. I know TD had a few skills that were stronger when calm, which were really valuable.

I'm surprised Crazed doesn't clamp Arousal to high! It's actually interesting that the three pairs of sentiments that are on opposite sides on the sentiment wheel have the same clamps, in one quest I actually divided the sentiments into three groups based on those, Strong/Clever/Caring respectively.

What would the Aether sentiment represent? I do know people liked Aether and Fig in MARDEK, being the weird special and hard to come across types always had a cool air of mystique!

Even MARDEK had different types for monsters! They only really mattered for the Quarry skills, though, but did provide some flavour. Very importantly, that game also featured the Goblinoid type. That's very important to include in any MARDEK-related games, I think. Yes.

I do remember other types from the Miasmon I played! That one had stuff like Humanoid, Angelic, Demonic, etc.

Anyway, I do like most of the proposed changes, but the big question is of course putting it together into a cohesive whole! That's always an issue when trying to integrate multiple systems into one game, especially when putting them together into one unified combat system, rather than having entirely separate physical and mental battles.

And there's the concern of how to properly introduce these elements in a way that doesn't overwhelm the player! Taming Mind definitely suffered under the weight of its meandering complex intro act having to explain all the high-minded concepts, even if the payoff was a really unique combat system.

Good to hear progress on the MARDEK beta keys is underway! What're your plans for CBC and Taming Mind once you've got MARDEK out of the way? Taming Mind especially is long overdue for a PC release!

I've had those moments of being unable to sleep due to a sudden burst of thoughts about something, be it ideas for a story or thinking about a recently bought game.

I remember the demo of Belief! I did like the idea, the whole converting enemies thing and whatnot, it certainly appeals to me more than "slashy sword go slashy".

I do remember that one light/dark combat syste suggestions for the remake. That one was weird and contrived, so I'm glad you kept tinkering with it. I also hadn't noticed before the floor tiles in that screenshot are taken from AF:C.

I've always liked the compromise option of having a simple UI which can be clicked on for an expansive complex UI, like how the old MARDEK let you click on character health bars to examine all stats, or how in Bravely Default you had the basic UI with HP and statuses, and a more in-depth one that contained all relevant data.

And I have always disliked the UI in most FF games, specifically FF3~9. Those UIs were so useless, anything more advanced that doing damage or healing had barely any visible feedback, so the game constantly pushes you to only use the most boring and generic tactics. Wah!

I do like integrating portraits into the UI, that's a good idea! What does the six-pointed star represent, though? I also notice the runes are back! I don't think those were in the previous system, right? I do like runes!!

I'm assuming there would also be physical skills alongside the basic attack? MARDEK had characters like Zach who only used physical attacks, but still had a somewhat diversified skillset that had its own specific niches.

Light and Dark... Until suddenly it turns out that was all a LIE FROM DHARMA, and the real solution is to reach an equilibrium so during the second half of the game you have to make the Light monsters Dark again, but not too Dark!!

I think it'd make sense for the effects of having Sanity depleted to differ from character to character. I suppose another option would be if they actually convert to the enemy side, quite like in Belief, then you either have to turn them Light again or physically knock them out and heal them to bring them back to their senses.

Hm, having all spells depend on being Dark or Light might get finicky, maybe that's something that should be idiosyncratic, so only some spells get a boost from having high/low Sanity?

So, I'm guessing characters can either have basic attacks, physical skills, physical spells and mental spells? And there could also be weapon-based skills that affect both Body and Mind, sorta like how Deugan got Spirit Blade which worked based off Attack, but used Spirit and MDef instead of Strenght and Def to calculate damage.

I am wondering what the best way to introduce these concepts would be? I could imagine that during the intro, Deugan's acting as the DM in his and Mardek's roleplay session, and initially Deugan's doing all the tutorializing on the plain combat, but then at some point Mardek wants to try befriending a monster instead and clumsily tutorializes himself through the process, Deugan not sure whether he likes Mardek's initiative or is annoyed by his desire to befriend everyone and everything.

"No Mardek, you can't just befriend all the Goblins!"
"Well, I still want to try!"
"Fine, but you're not befriending The Dragon!"
"Well, maybe the Goblins can try befriending The Dragon?"

I keep forgetting the game doesn't have a typical turn based gameplay but more ATB-like speed. That one is going to be difficult to balance, you won't want players getting too many turns relative to the enemy, or vice versa, since then the game stops feeling interactive. I'm worried this system's going to be too complex, rather than the simpler system in Taming Dreams where Arousal only dictated turn order but not frequency, so high Arousal wasn't necessarily better than low. Arousal already also dictates what spells you can use, so also affecting speed seems like it'll be a lot to keep track of, as well as a UI nightmare (How do you show how casting a spell is going to affect the future turn order?).

For something like Arousal, maybe only some skills depend on it? So some skills are more or less effective depending on the user's or target's arousal, but others might be unaffected by it. I know TD had a few skills that were stronger when calm, which were really valuable.

I'm surprised Crazed doesn't clamp Arousal to high! It's actually interesting that the three pairs of sentiments that are on opposite sides on the sentiment wheel have the same clamps, in one quest I actually divided the sentiments into three groups based on those, Strong/Clever/Caring respectively.

What would the Aether sentiment represent? I do know people liked Aether and Fig in MARDEK, being the weird special and hard to come across types always had a cool air of mystique!

Even MARDEK had different types for monsters! They only really mattered for the Quarry skills, though, but did provide some flavour. Very importantly, that game also featured the Goblinoid type. That's very important to include in any MARDEK-related games, I think. Yes.

I do remember other types from the Miasmon I played! That one had stuff like Humanoid, Angelic, Demonic, etc.

Anyway, I do like most of the proposed changes, but the big question is of course putting it together into a cohesive whole! That's always an issue when trying to integrate multiple systems into one game, especially when putting them together into one unified combat system, rather than having entirely separate physical and mental battles.

And there's the concern of how to properly introduce these elements in a way that doesn't overwhelm the player! Taming Mind definitely suffered under the weight of its meandering complex intro act having to explain all the high-minded concepts, even if the payoff was a really unique combat system.

Tobias 1115~5Y

I don't know if CBC is worth a Steam release, and it feels sort of weird having it connected to my account there so if people look for other Alora Fane games they see that... I should do something with it though! I'm pleased with Taming Dreams, but I still haven't figured out the technical stuff which makes episode 3 not work for me currently. I'd like to look into that, and maybe make it available for some low price as a curiosity, but this MARDEK Steam release has already distracted me more than I'd like from DD! So I want to work on this for a bit first. Maybe breaking up DD development with things like that will keep it fresh for me? I'll email you back when I hear back from Steam about the beta keys! Annoying that it takes time...

The six-pointed star is Attack! I thought I'd said that, but apparently not. The shield one is Defence. And runes weren't in the previous system!

Apparently I didn't include this in the post either despite meaning to, but I wondered whether to also include physical skills, so character could for example have Attack, Skills, Spells, Item, with those skills not relying on Mind/Light/Dark at all. Maybe they'd cost Body, or have simple cooldowns, or even no cost, and wouldn't be bound in availability to arousal, and they'd all damage Body.

I also forgot to mention an interesting idea: spells or skills that were more powerful based on how balanced Light and Dark were.

I like the excessive side-swapping in Belief, but it feels wrong for this for whatever reason! I find it funny when people are essentially arguing about beliefs and swapping sides freely, but an RPG protagonist turning to THE DARK SIDE feels like it should be a bigger deal?

I'm thinking most spells would affect Body but cost Mind (Light/Dark), and all physical skills would affect Body, since the Light/Dark thing is purely for taming (which is optional anyway), so physical skills which affected Mind would potentially convert monsters by hitting them with swords!

I definitely don't want to do the Taming Dreams thing and have some overwhelmingly thorough explanation at the start; I'd probably just have a "don't worry about that" thing regarding Mind in the intro, since you can get by with just mindless physical attacks (whereas TD's system was necessary), and some NPCs who explain the nitty-gritty details once you're given free movement (like TD's Loreladies).

Though I do like your thing about the goblins befriending The Dragon there!

I thought Taming Dreams' excitement did affect turn frequency? I'm probably mistaken! I think it does in Belief, though it's subtle. There might be a lot of issues with using arousal as speed though, so I could definitely change that in favour of a basic Speed stat if that'd remove some unnecessary complication. Someone else mentioned the idea that powerful spells could be restricted to the low arousal range though, which I think is an interesting choice for the player to make.

I prefer the idea of spells' availability being determined by arousal, while their power isn't directly affected by it. As much as I like all the interactions in Taming Dreams, having both the target's and actor's arousal as multipliers led to huge power ranges which were much harder to predict.

I thought about clamping Crazed high, but then would Brave be clamped low, or four of them be clamped high, or three high, two low, and one unclamped? I imagined people like Hannibal Lecter, who have a 'calm craziness' about them.

Strong/Clever/Caring, interesting! I'm assuming Courage/Destruction is Strong, Creation/Fear is Clever, Sorrow/Bliss is Caring? Makes sense!

The whole dreamrealm - or 'drealm' - thing is going to play a huge part in this, so it seems strange actually to not have an element associated with that spiritual/mystical side of things. That's what Aether would be. I thought about adding an additional Mind element too (equivalent to Fig, also purple), but it feels unnecessary, and all the other ones relate to the mind in some way anyway. Maybe you could say that Aether is like the sea in which all the other islands float... making Aether a perfect name actually, since that's what the word historically referred to. Either it'd have no elemental relationships, or it'd be strong against everything and weak against everything simultaneously.

I wondered which of these species goblins would be! Probably Fey/Warrior, or even just Fey!

The way I'm imagining what I've described here, as a whole, is simpler than Taming Dreams, but I think based on the comments either I've just not explained it very well, or it's never really possible to get a full feel for a system by just reading some text about it. I don't actually know for sure whether it'll feel in reality like it does in my head, but I'll play with it over the coming days and find out! If it's too complex, I'll trim some things out; runes could be removed entirely, for example, though I'd prefer to keep them.

I don't know if CBC is worth a Steam release, and it feels sort of weird having it connected to my account there so if people look for other Alora Fane games they see that... I should do /something/ with it though! I'm pleased with Taming Dreams, but I still haven't figured out the technical stuff which makes episode 3 not work for me currently. I'd like to look into that, and maybe make it available for some low price as a curiosity, but this MARDEK Steam release has already distracted me more than I'd like from DD! So I want to work on this for a bit first. Maybe breaking up DD development with things like that will keep it fresh for me? I'll email you back when I hear back from Steam about the beta keys! Annoying that it takes time...

The six-pointed star is Attack! I thought I'd said that, but apparently not. The shield one is Defence. And runes weren't in the previous system!

Apparently I didn't include this in the post either despite meaning to, but I wondered whether to also include physical skills, so character could for example have Attack, Skills, Spells, Item, with those skills not relying on Mind/Light/Dark at all. Maybe they'd cost Body, or have simple cooldowns, or even no cost, and wouldn't be bound in availability to arousal, and they'd all damage Body.

I also forgot to mention an interesting idea: spells or skills that were more powerful based on how balanced Light and Dark were.

I like the excessive side-swapping in Belief, but it feels wrong for this for whatever reason! I find it funny when people are essentially arguing about beliefs and swapping sides freely, but an RPG protagonist turning to THE DARK SIDE feels like it should be a bigger deal?

I'm thinking most spells would affect Body but cost Mind (Light/Dark), and all physical skills would affect Body, since the Light/Dark thing is purely for taming (which is optional anyway), so physical skills which affected Mind would potentially convert monsters by hitting them with swords!

I definitely don't want to do the Taming Dreams thing and have some overwhelmingly thorough explanation at the start; I'd probably just have a "don't worry about that" thing regarding Mind in the intro, since you can get by with just mindless physical attacks (whereas TD's system was necessary), and some NPCs who explain the nitty-gritty details once you're given free movement (like TD's Loreladies).

Though I do like your thing about the goblins befriending The Dragon there!

I thought Taming Dreams' excitement /did/ affect turn frequency? I'm probably mistaken! I think it does in Belief, though it's subtle. There might be a lot of issues with using arousal as speed though, so I could definitely change that in favour of a basic Speed stat if that'd remove some unnecessary complication. Someone else mentioned the idea that powerful spells could be restricted to the low arousal range though, which I think is an interesting choice for the player to make.

I prefer the idea of spells' availability being determined by arousal, while their power isn't directly affected by it. As much as I like all the interactions in Taming Dreams, having both the target's and actor's arousal as multipliers led to /huge/ power ranges which were much harder to predict.

I thought about clamping Crazed high, but then would Brave be clamped low, or four of them be clamped high, or three high, two low, and one unclamped? I imagined people like Hannibal Lecter, who have a 'calm craziness' about them.

Strong/Clever/Caring, interesting! I'm assuming Courage/Destruction is Strong, Creation/Fear is Clever, Sorrow/Bliss is Caring? Makes sense!

The whole dreamrealm - or 'drealm' - thing is going to play a huge part in this, so it seems strange actually to /not/ have an element associated with that spiritual/mystical side of things. That's what Aether would be. I thought about adding an additional Mind element too (equivalent to Fig, also purple), but it feels unnecessary, and all the other ones relate to the mind in some way anyway. Maybe you could say that Aether is like the sea in which all the other islands float... making Aether a perfect name actually, since that's what the word historically referred to. Either it'd have no elemental relationships, or it'd be strong against everything and weak against everything simultaneously.

I wondered which of these species goblins would be! Probably Fey/Warrior, or even just Fey!

The way I'm imagining what I've described here, as a whole, is simpler than Taming Dreams, but I think based on the comments either I've just not explained it very well, or it's never really possible to get a full feel for a system by just reading some text about it. I don't actually know for sure whether it'll feel in reality like it does in my head, but I'll play with it over the coming days and find out! If it's too complex, I'll trim some things out; runes could be removed entirely, for example, though I'd prefer to keep them.

Maniafig222~5Y

I like the idea of using cooldowns with skills, that way the player isn't just using the one same skill over and over, and you could have powerful skills with high cooldowns, or a skill with no cooldown that gets better every time it's used consecutively!

One thing to also consider is what happens when the whole party has their light depleted! Would it be a game over, or would the player just watch the party fight uncontrollably for a while?

Well, you know what they say about sparing the rod and spoiling the physical manifestation of your feelings!! A thorough application of wanton violence is a very convincing argument in any discussion.

In Taming Dreams everybody gets one action per turn, and excitement only affected the order characters took their turn in! I am curious why you want to have a system where the amount of turns is more fluid, since it'll make balancing much more difficult!

You guessed the three pairs right! I even had different names for most of the Sentiments (or 'Types' as they were called by the characters in that quest), being Proud, Wary, Help, Hurt, Create and Feel. I wanted to use simpler words for them, since all characters talk in simple, short words and sentence structures. [LINK]

Hrm, maybe they should've all been four letters, so Create could've been Make and Proud could've been Dare. Oh well, too late to change it now!!

I am wondering what you're going to do with the Dreamrealm thing! It was interesting though under-explored in MARDEK, and it sounds like you had big plans for the concept in Taming Mind as well!

I guess regular Goblins would fit well as just fey, then something like a Goblin Shaman could be Fey/Arcane, or a Goblin Knight could be Fey/Warrior. And of course a Fungoblin would be Fey/Plantoid, and a Poshgoblin is Fey/Posh!!

I suppose the reason why this might seem more complex is due to it being two systems! I have been wondering how much they would affect each other, as well as having to juggle both systems while weathering enemy attacks, since enemies would probably both attack the player's Body and Mind, even if the player's focused on Body or Mind damage. And there's the question of whether attacking/healing the Body should also affect the Mind (being hurt increases Dark, being heal increases Light)! I guess we'll know once you experiment with the system some more!

One thing to also consider is what happens when the whole party has their light depleted! Would it be a game over, or would the player just watch the party fight uncontrollably for a while?

Well, you know what they say about sparing the rod and spoiling the physical manifestation of your feelings!! A thorough application of wanton violence is a very convincing argument in any discussion.

In Taming Dreams everybody gets one action per turn, and excitement only affected the order characters took their turn in! I am curious why you want to have a system where the amount of turns is more fluid, since it'll make balancing much more difficult!

You guessed the three pairs right! I even had different names for most of the Sentiments (or 'Types' as they were called by the characters in that quest), being Proud, Wary, Help, Hurt, Create and Feel. I wanted to use simpler words for them, since all characters talk in simple, short words and sentence structures. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVJyjf68pRA

Hrm, maybe they should've all been four letters, so Create could've been Make and Proud could've been Dare. Oh well, too late to change it now!!

I am wondering what you're going to do with the Dreamrealm thing! It was interesting though under-explored in MARDEK, and it sounds like you had big plans for the concept in Taming Mind as well!

I guess regular Goblins would fit well as just fey, then something like a Goblin Shaman could be Fey/Arcane, or a Goblin Knight could be Fey/Warrior. And of course a Fungoblin would be Fey/Plantoid, and a Poshgoblin is Fey/Posh!!

I suppose the reason why this might seem more complex is due to it being two systems! I have been wondering how much they would affect each other, as well as having to juggle both systems while weathering enemy attacks, since enemies would probably both attack the player's Body and Mind, even if the player's focused on Body or Mind damage. And there's the question of whether attacking/healing the Body should also affect the Mind (being hurt increases Dark, being heal increases Light)! I guess we'll know once you experiment with the system some more!

Ampersand68~5Y

I really like the changes! A few suggestions/notes:

I think the physical/mental dichotomy could be renamed, as ultimately they're all "mental", really- I think an Elemental/Sentimental/Runic vs Mood distinction would make more sense, though Mood is already used to describe Status Effects, which I'd suggest renaming to Affect.

As for "taming" monsters, perhaps that could be tied into gaining their essences? i.e. killing them causes them to fade back into the miasma, but keeping them around until the end of battle means you can preserve some of their essence moving on.

I also like the idea of being able to do a "pacifist" run as well- it kind of reminds me of how in the Metal Gear Solid series, one could deplete the stamina gauge of bosses in order to get special items and ranks.

One way to keep Arousal from being a "god" stat like speed in most RPGs is by locking away certain powerful spells/abilities behind a low Arousal state, to make the tradeoff in turn frequency more interesting. Another idea is high Arousal resulting in higher "fumble" chances causing attacks/abilities to miss more often (dunno how "chance-based" you want to make your combat system though).

Perhaps "falling to dark" could be labeled as its own Affect, "Psychosis"? And rather than having Humors like Plague or Poison, they could be effects of Psychosis (poor mental health doesn't exactly do wonders for physical health, after all). It'd obviate the need to have dedicated items/spells to counter effects like Poison, which is always annoying in RPGs, as well as simplify the combat system so there's only one system of status effects in play.

I really like the changes! A few suggestions/notes:

I think the physical/mental dichotomy could be renamed, as ultimately they're all "mental", really- I think an Elemental/Sentimental/Runic vs Mood distinction would make more sense, though Mood is already used to describe Status Effects, which I'd suggest renaming to Affect.

As for "taming" monsters, perhaps that could be tied into gaining their essences? i.e. killing them causes them to fade back into the miasma, but keeping them around until the end of battle means you can preserve some of their essence moving on.

I also like the idea of being able to do a "pacifist" run as well- it kind of reminds me of how in the Metal Gear Solid series, one could deplete the stamina gauge of bosses in order to get special items and ranks.

One way to keep Arousal from being a "god" stat like speed in most RPGs is by locking away certain powerful spells/abilities behind a low Arousal state, to make the tradeoff in turn frequency more interesting. Another idea is high Arousal resulting in higher "fumble" chances causing attacks/abilities to miss more often (dunno how "chance-based" you want to make your combat system though).

Perhaps "falling to dark" could be labeled as its own Affect, "Psychosis"? And rather than having Humors like Plague or Poison, they could be effects of Psychosis (poor mental health doesn't exactly do wonders for physical health, after all). It'd obviate the need to have dedicated items/spells to counter effects like Poison, which is always annoying in RPGs, as well as simplify the combat system so there's only one system of status effects in play.

Tobias 1115~5Y

Physical/mental regarding spells here refers to what they affect, so all of them rely on the Light/Dark stats to calculate their 'damage', but the Physical ones apply that to the target's Body while the mental ones apply it to the target's Mind. It's why I need a better term than 'physical', which doesn't make that clear.

I wondered whether to have essence collection bound to taming monsters, as that does make sense, but I'm using those as rewards for clearing out all instances of a species (which I don't want to lose), plus I don't want the player to feel like they're missing out by not taming. Ideally both the violence and taming paths should be equally rewarding, giving full freedom about which way you want to play. Maybe killing monsters makes them drop items that can be used to bolster Body skills, while taming them makes them drop items that bolster spell skills?

I very much like the low arousal = powerful spells thing! That could be a great way to counteract any benefits gained from high arousal producing high speed. I want to minimise randomness as much as possible, so I prefer this over having a random fumble chance!

I could just remove the 'humour' effects entirely if they'd just be unwanted annoyances; that wouldn't be a major loss at all. Having something like 'Psychosis' as a mood (in academic Psychology, which I studied, the term 'mood' refers to something prolonged while 'affect' typically refers to something immediate and short-lived) could make sense! I'll give that some thought!

I wondered whether to have essence collection bound to taming monsters, as that does make sense, but I'm using those as rewards for clearing out all instances of a species (which I don't want to lose), plus I don't want the player to feel like they're missing out by not taming. Ideally both the violence and taming paths should be equally rewarding, giving full freedom about which way you want to play. Maybe killing monsters makes them drop items that can be used to bolster Body skills, while taming them makes them drop items that bolster spell skills?

I very much like the low arousal = powerful spells thing! That could be a great way to counteract any benefits gained from high arousal producing high speed. I want to minimise randomness as much as possible, so I prefer this over having a random fumble chance!

I could just remove the 'humour' effects entirely if they'd just be unwanted annoyances; that wouldn't be a major loss at all. Having something like 'Psychosis' as a mood (in academic Psychology, which I studied, the term 'mood' refers to something prolonged while 'affect' typically refers to something immediate and short-lived) could make sense! I'll give that some thought!

Ampersand68~5Y

Perhaps "Corporeal" would work as an alternative term for "Physical"? It gives a better sense of the magic being distinct from mental state while avoiding the association of physical attacks with non-magic/non-elemental ones. Alternatively, "Somatic" could be an option to lean into the body/mind distinction (perhaps switching out the counterpart, "Mental" for "Psychic" in that case). You could also simply call it "Body" damage as well.

As for the pacifist/violent distinction, they're definitely two distinct playstyles which should be rewarded differently (though on further reflection, perhaps there'd actually be three playstyles- offensive, conversion, and "beast master" which would all cater to different crowds). Perhaps a good compromise would be to have two different kinds of essence which are acquired based on how you dealt with each species of monster (mostly killing them vs mostly taming them- the latter of which could also boost tamed creatures, maybe even allow for "summons"? along with Spells that focus on Mind/healing).

As for the pacifist/violent distinction, they're definitely two distinct playstyles which should be rewarded differently (though on further reflection, perhaps there'd actually be three playstyles- offensive, conversion, and "beast master" which would all cater to different crowds). Perhaps a good compromise would be to have two different kinds of essence which are acquired based on how you dealt with each species of monster (mostly killing them vs mostly taming them- the latter of which could also boost tamed creatures, maybe even allow for "summons"? along with Spells that focus on Mind/healing).

Tobias 1115~5Y

I like 'Somatic'! And I've been thinking for a while that the way elemancy works is more like psychic powers than traditional magic in some ways, so Somatic/Psychic is something I'll consider!

I'm thinking that instead of skills improving from use, they could be levelled up with special items. Tamed enemies would drop items that add XP to Mind-affecting skills while killed enemies drop items for enhancing Body-affecting ones.

I'm probably going to use essences for summoning, for at least one character!

Ampersand68~5Y

Ah, so you'd be incentivized to kill at least a few enemies, to level up Body? In that case, perhaps the kill/tame dichotomy could be reframed in a different way, to make it seem like less of a moral distinction? Maybe Pacified vs Purified?

Though I do anticipate situations where the decision between attacking Mind vs Body would have an effect. To take an example from the original Mardek, Steele either being "killed" and left for dead, or if dealt with via Mind magic, forced into a moment of self-reflection and leaves "never to be seen again". Small differences like that, even if they eventually lead to the same point in the future, could make for interesting story branches, and I do love the idea of gameplay informing the narrative in those kinds of ways.

Tobias 1115~5Y

The items you'd be getting would be for empowering skills that damage Body (eg you could level Brave Slash up from 2 to 3), so essentially you'd be getting improvements to what you used to acquire them. Keep using killing and you get better at killing, keep taming and you get better at taming. Makes sense! Equipment etc that defends against Body damage would be more freely available since that's always useful regardless of the path you've chosen. Ideally the player should never feel compelled to take the path they don't enjoy, even briefly. (I suspect the average playthrough would be a mix of both though.)

Yes, that's the kind of outcomes I'm hoping this new system will allow! Not huge story changes - that's not practical - but just little bits of dialogue that acknoweldge the decision the player made.

1 reply...

Dingding32167~5Y

All the changes you've talked about here definitely sounds exciting! I personally agree that it's for the better, though as the post went on I got slightly overwhelmed by the amount of features being thrown at me-- playing it and figuring things out would probably solve that problem, and I think it was partially to do with all the names like humours etc, whereas its functions like regeneration are actually really intuitive. It's definitely unique, has appeal to both you and other "generic" gamers, and if you can pull it off it'll definitely be what you're known for, I think! The complexity and originality balance seems just about right. I also love the new graphics with the character's head portraits, which I definitely felt were missing before but recognize! I also honestly think using the current species words like "beast" is better than "bestial" because it makes it a lot more accessible for people (especially if their first language isn't English, for example). Making it easier to understand these things makes it easier for them to like the game as well, I feel! On that note, I do like the concept behind matching runes for best effect and the psychology behind that, but it still feels slightly overwhelming at this point to need to consider all these different factors at once-- but again, hopefully experience will help (+a good tutorial, gradual introduction to these elements and balanced implementation!)

But yes overall I'm really impressed by how much you've refined the system and excited for both this and the MARDEK re-release!

All the changes you've talked about here definitely sounds exciting! I personally agree that it's for the better, though as the post went on I got slightly overwhelmed by the amount of features being thrown at me-- playing it and figuring things out would probably solve that problem, and I think it was partially to do with all the names like humours etc, whereas its functions like regeneration are actually really intuitive. It's definitely unique, has appeal to both you and other "generic" gamers, and if you can pull it off it'll definitely be what you're known for, I think! The complexity and originality balance seems just about right. I also love the new graphics with the character's head portraits, which I definitely felt were missing before but recognize! I also honestly think using the current species words like "beast" is better than "bestial" because it makes it a lot more accessible for people (especially if their first language isn't English, for example). Making it easier to understand these things makes it easier for them to like the game as well, I feel! On that note, I do like the concept behind matching runes for best effect and the psychology behind that, but  it still feels slightly overwhelming at this point to need to consider all these different factors at once-- but again, hopefully experience will help (+a good tutorial, gradual introduction to these elements and balanced implementation!)

But yes overall I'm really impressed by how much you've refined the system and excited for both this and the MARDEK re-release!

Tobias 1115~5Y

I've noticed that in a lot of JRPG battle systems (eg Final Fantasy XII, XIII) there are a lot of details and nuances which would surely be overwhelming on paper, but once you're used to them they open up a lot of opportunities and feel natural. I'm hoping for something like that, but of course one long blog post can't compare to actually playing around with the system directly!

I could go with Beast etc rather than Bestial etc, though I've got 'Avian' and 'Piscine' for bird-like and fish-like currently, which feel sillier as 'Bird' and 'Fish'... Unless I had something like Aquatic for the latter, which is actually more fitting... HMM. I've honestly given that little thought so far; Bestial etc were just the names I used in the past. Easier to understand would be better though.

I think you don't actually need to consider many factors at once for any given interaction. If you want to physically attack, all you need to consider are Attack and Defence (and you don't even really need to think about those), maybe element too. For mind abilities where you're focused on taming, the runes calculation would be shown to you as a colour around the target (warmer = more effective), as I did in Belief, so you'd not really need to mentally calculate rune relations or anything. Understanding would give you an edge because you could alter your states to produce the best results, but it wouldn't be necessary (and taming would be largely or entirely optional anyway).

I think it'll be a lot clearer seeing things in action though!

I could go with Beast etc rather than Bestial etc, though I've got 'Avian' and 'Piscine' for bird-like and fish-like currently, which feel sillier as 'Bird' and 'Fish'... Unless I had something like Aquatic for the latter, which is actually more fitting... HMM. I've honestly given that little thought so far; Bestial etc were just the names I used in the past. Easier to understand would be better though.

I think you don't actually need to consider many factors at once for any given interaction. If you want to physically attack, all you need to consider are Attack and Defence (and you don't even really need to /think/ about those), maybe element too. For mind abilities where you're focused on taming, the runes calculation would be shown to you as a colour around the target (warmer = more effective), as I did in Belief, so you'd not really need to mentally calculate rune relations or anything. Understanding would give you an edge because you could alter your states to produce the best results, but it wouldn't be necessary (and taming would be largely or entirely optional anyway).

I think it'll be a lot clearer seeing things in action though!

Alban12320~5Y

Tobias i really think that the new pixel sprites doesn't match with the game it's like something out of the game really, and by the way what you did before in the demo was very good maybe you can change the game mode but that doesn't mean you have to change all the sprite. Anyway i wish you good luck and as always just do what you think it's the best this is just my opinion.

LotBlind53~5Y

Instead of humours, you could call it "physical/body conditions"? "Body status". I think "humours" still is a pretty near approximation to one's physical condition in that old paradigm, so if you don't mind the connotations (as in mainly it makes it sound like the people in this world believe in them), it can't be the worst. Then there's "constitution" or "vitality".

I also found another obscure term: [LINK]

Tobias 1115~5Y

Habitus is an interesting term I've never heard before, but it sounds like it's mostly for the physical presentation rather than inner state? I think I don't really need a specific name for this other than 'status effects' though, if it'd only add confusion! That's if I even include them at all!

codyfun12329~5Y

Wouldn't a "light cost" actually be the opposite of a cost, by keeping the player characters light-leaning if they repeatedly use them? And how do the costs work for the enemies? Will foes raising their own light levels inadvertently convert themselves to your cause?

In any case, I look forward to making friends out of all of my foes. And then beating their former friends into being my friends too. Yes, that sounds about right.

Tobias 1115~5Y

Yes, characters would actually get more Light the more Light skills they used, which I find interesting! Light would mostly be used for taming/healing, and monsters wouldn't tend to do either, but yes, if they used light skills, they would shift closer to your side. Either there could be some special dark-costing healing abilities specifically for monsters, or I'd just not have healing monsters (which tend to be annoying anyway).

MF11~5Y

The changes seem quite interesting. I think it will require a lot of "fine-tuning" to make such a unique system really work well, but I believe you should certainly try. The game can benefit a lot of the added dept and like you said, it's a long term project.

Also, I think you really should take a look at Darkest Dungeon. It's an RPG with a sanity system which I consider genius (as the game as a whole), and it could give you some inspiration.

Tobias 1115~5Y

Fine-tuning is necessary for any system; they always start out rough and get refined over time.

I've actually heard of Darkest Dungeon! Never played it though. I'll look into it.

Terrafide2~5Y

It's definitely an interesting and unique concept. And I like the different avenues that are being explored. As someone who suffers from severe clinical depression, a game that organically explores themes of mental health would be welcome. So I hope I don't come off as annoying or jerkish when I say this because that's not at all my intent.

It just all seems a little contrived to me. Practically, I feel like this is 3 systems in one game and that may be difficult to follow. The battle system is (arguably) the most important part of any RPG because it will be the greatest source of fun and/or frustration for any player. While I think that trying to do something new and inspired is admirable, simply put, if a game isn't fun, it doesn't matter how emotional or unique or creative it is, it's a bad game. And again, I mean this in the most constructive way possible, this system just doesn't look that fun to me.

I may be totally wrong on all of this and it's simply that I don't understand it enough. Of course it's also impossible to tell without actually playing it. But I feel like a large reason that MARDEK is so loved by so many is because you did something that had almost perfect execution. The combat in the original may seem simple at times, but it is honestly one of the most (if not THE most) satisfying battle and progression systems in any game I've ever played.

I feel that these themes would be better explored through the writing and character development, rather than a fundamental system in the game. But of course this is all just my two cents.

You are the author of your game! So please follow your vision and wants when making it. Regardless of anything, I will still buy this game and I'm sure I'll love it. Cheers.

It just all seems a little contrived to me. Practically, I feel like this is 3 systems in one game and that may be difficult to follow. The battle system is (arguably) the most important part of any RPG because it will be the greatest source of fun and/or frustration for any player. While I think that trying to do something new and inspired is admirable, simply put, if a game isn't fun, it doesn't matter how emotional or unique or creative it is, it's a bad game. And again, I mean this in the most constructive way possible, this system just doesn't look that fun to me.

I may be totally wrong on all of this and it's simply that I don't understand it enough. Of course it's also impossible to tell without actually playing it. But I feel like a large reason that MARDEK is so loved by so many is because you did something that had almost perfect execution. The combat in the original may seem simple at times, but it is honestly one of the most (if not THE most) satisfying battle and progression systems in any game I've ever played.

I feel that these themes would be better explored through the writing and character development, rather than a fundamental system in the game. But of course this is all just my two cents.

You are the author of your game! So please follow your vision and wants when making it. Regardless of anything, I will still buy this game and I'm sure I'll love it. Cheers.

Tobias 1115~5Y

I definitely wouldn't expect immediate and universal love and acceptance of a new idea from everyone! But thanks for not just being horrible about your concerns! It's valuable to hear things like this.

It's true that whether a system is fun is paramount. Personally I see this as a step up from the previous system in that regard, because of the options that it presents. You can go down the standard route of depleting HP to kill your enemies, or you can convert them to your own side and use their own skills against the remaining foes. Doesn't that seem appealing to you? It does to me!

I'm curious about which 3 systems you think are at work here, as I'd see two at most: killing and taming. Most abilities would simply damage Body, and the Light/Dark and arousal stats would be replacements for magic attack/MP/cooldowns. Most RPGs have a ton of stats which are used in complex formulae to determine damage, but here the numbers are minimal and clear, which I think makes it less obscure than those systems. The only real complexity would come from the runes, though using them for taming is optional, and there'd be visual guides about rune effectiveness so you wouldn't have to calculate anything in your head.

I think it'll become clearer when I'm able to show it in action, so I'll be working on getting to that point over the coming days.

It's true that whether a system is /fun/ is paramount. Personally I see this as a step up from the previous system in that regard, because of the options that it presents. You can go down the standard route of depleting HP to kill your enemies, or you can convert them to your own side and use their own skills against the remaining foes. Doesn't that seem appealing to you? It does to me!

I'm curious about which 3 systems you think are at work here, as I'd see two at most: killing and taming. Most abilities would simply damage Body, and the Light/Dark and arousal stats would be replacements for magic attack/MP/cooldowns. Most RPGs have a ton of stats which are used in complex formulae to determine damage, but here the numbers are minimal and clear, which I think makes it less obscure than those systems. The only real complexity would come from the runes, though using them for taming is optional, and there'd be visual guides about rune effectiveness so you wouldn't have to calculate anything in your head.

I think it'll become clearer when I'm able to show it in action, so I'll be working on getting to that point over the coming days.

MarninPL33~5Y

I really like the battle change! It took away complexity from unnecessary places and put it in more fit places. I also enjoy those avatars that you have drawn for the characters, it's way more better than simple copy-and-paste of character model's face.

However, tying spells only to essences doesn't seem to be a good idea. If every character can equip any essence, they can basically become anything we want. This seems fine on paper, but it also means that none of the characters is truly unique (apart from base spells that they have).

I'm also a little bit worried about the dark/light mechanic. Taming monsters sounds amazing, but the system still has a flaw that old body/mind system had. What I mean is that it forces player to focus on one bar, instead of playing around both. If you can tame or kill a monster, you should focus on one of those things. You basically have two separate ways to play the game, and both would need balancing. Also it creates some story issues. If it's possible to tame a monster, why kill it? Your previous projects have shown that people prefer violence in those sort of games, so removing it is kinda impossible. I don't have any suggestions how to resolve those issues (and I'm not even sure if those are problems to begin with) but I'm sure that you will work something out of it!

Once again, I'm really amazed by your progress and I can't wait to test it out!

However, tying spells only to essences doesn't seem to be a good idea. If every character can equip any essence, they can basically become anything we want. This seems fine on paper, but it also means that none of the characters is truly unique (apart from base spells that they have).

I'm also a little bit worried about the dark/light mechanic. Taming monsters sounds amazing, but the system still has a flaw that old body/mind system had. What I mean is that it forces player to focus on one bar, instead of playing around both. If you can tame or kill a monster, you should focus on one of those things. You basically have two separate ways to play the game, and both would need balancing. Also it creates some story issues. If it's possible to tame a monster, why kill it? Your previous projects have shown that people prefer violence in those sort of games, so removing it is kinda impossible. I don't have any suggestions how to resolve those issues (and I'm not even sure if those are problems to begin with) but I'm sure that you will work something out of it!

Once again, I'm really amazed by your progress and I can't wait to test it out!

Tobias 1115~5Y

I'm definitely not tying spells to essences, sorry if that was unclear! Essences will likely give stat boosts related to Mind while equipment boosts Body/Attack/Defence, but spells will be gained either from Memento items, or just through some direct means without an item (I'm still thinking about the specifics), and they'd definitely be specific to characters.

If it's possible to kill a monster, why tame it? The main point of the body/mind divide here is to give the possibility for players to choose their preferred path, and some people would get more pleasure out of killing than taming and vice versa. Neither would give more benefits than the other. There could also be more nuanced middle paths, though. For example, since Dark is used to calculate damage from dark spells, making a dark-spell-casting opponent more Light would weaken its spells.

Sekhmet10~4Y

Do you intend to link these two approaches in some cases?

It could be interesting to make sure you have to work a bit on the two techniques, even if each player will have his/her favorite technique.

Monsters that cannot be tamed (or are very hard to kill), or monsters (opposing characters?) that have to be tamed (or turned to Light if they are human) to go through the story.

But maybe in some cases there could be some interaction between the two techniques.
For instance, some monsters could be easier to kill if they are "half-tamed". Or some other would be easier to tame if they are hurt in some point. There could be material attacks that are more/less efficient depending on the Mind status, and Mind attacks that have an effet depending on the Body status.

I have the impression here that if you have a Body-fighter and a Mind-fighter (to put it simply, of course it is more complicated because characters might have different skills), only one will be useful if you choose one way of winning. But what if you needed both?

Do you intend to link these two approaches in some cases?

It could be interesting to make sure you have to work a bit on the two techniques, even if each player will have his/her favorite technique.

Monsters that cannot be tamed (or are very hard to kill), or monsters (opposing characters?) that have to be tamed (or turned to Light if they are human) to go through the story.

But maybe in some cases there could be some interaction between the two techniques.
For instance, some monsters could be easier to kill if they are "half-tamed". Or some other would be easier to tame if they are hurt in some point. There could be material attacks that are more/less efficient depending on the Mind status, and Mind attacks that have an effet depending on the Body status.

I have the impression here that if you have a Body-fighter and a Mind-fighter (to put it simply, of course it is more complicated because characters might have different skills), only one will be useful if you choose one way of winning. But what if you needed both?

flippinoranges1~5Y

I think the idea of appeasing bosses sounds really cool! I would love to see more Gope scenarios. I thought having a character you decided not to destroy show up later in the game added a nice touch to the atmosphere in Mardek3.
Maybe the item left behind after taming monsters could be some sort of essence that you need to appease the boss? So if you decide to do a pacifist run, you can spend your time taming monsters and accumulating enough essence to be able to bring the boss over to the light side. You won't get many items or rewards if you don't kill them, but they could show up as characters later in the game and become really useful to you.
Or you could decide to do a genocide run and just kill everything. You'll get more powerful items and rewards, but you might miss out on the long term benefits of becoming friends with your enemies.
Just throwing some ideas around. Hope your day's been well.

Spectre35~5Y

Nice, tho this might take some time to get used to compared to generic RPGs.

Ptyrell37~5Y

Wow a lot to digest here! Has taken me a few days to really nail down my opinions. Verdict? I like it.

I really like the replayability this adds, especially with the incentive of achievements (both steam and in game) for certain play styles. Also the interesting plot-based restrictions/scenarios this will create will add a lot to the feeling of 'depth' to the game. And in the very least, the little icons of the characters in battle feels nice.

My biggest concern is that this system likely will be very difficult to balance. This can be overcome I'm sure, but shouldn't be ignored. Some other thoughts/suggestions:
- I'm guessing different characters will naturally be better at physical vs mental damage. The likely consequence of this is that the best team compositions will then be either heavily focused on one of those or the other, as weakening an enemy using both is pointless. Any concerns with this, or is that inevitable either way?
- I think if you added lines for arms for the men at least, it would make the boxes look more like bodies.
- You mention arousal as a percentage. How apparent will this be to the user?
- Will users be able to hover over UI elements for clarification?
- If going full dark has a consequence, will going full light have any repercussions? Perhaps they become too pacifistic?
- Will receiving physical damage effect the mind? Or will receiving mental damage effect the body? Could be argued the two can't truly be separated.
- Runes seem like the most potentially confusing aspect of the system. Generic elements like water/fire are common across the genre, and are not intimidating. I'm slightly concerned people would be offput by them, or ignore them when they play an important role. Do you feel like they are adding an essential/unique element to the gameplay? Or do you have a good strategy to explain them in simple terms? People familiar with Meyers-Briggs will understand easily, but I wonder if the majority of your target audience will fall into that category.

Anyways, I really like the changes! I think some of these things will just have to be ironed out in beta testing, and may not be issues at all. Hope this helps!

Wow a lot to digest here! Has taken me a few days to really nail down my opinions. Verdict? I like it.

I really like the replayability this adds, especially with the incentive of achievements (both steam and in game) for certain play styles. Also the interesting plot-based restrictions/scenarios this will create will add a lot to the feeling of 'depth' to the game. And in the very least, the little icons of the characters in battle feels nice.

My biggest concern is that this system likely will be very difficult to balance. This can be overcome I'm sure, but shouldn't be ignored. Some other thoughts/suggestions:
- I'm guessing different characters will naturally be better at physical vs mental damage. The likely consequence of this is that the best team compositions will then be either heavily focused on one of those or the other, as weakening an enemy using both is pointless. Any concerns with this, or is that inevitable either way?
- I think if you added lines for arms for the men at least, it would make the boxes look more like bodies.
- You mention arousal as a percentage. How apparent will this be to the user?
- Will users be able to hover over UI elements for clarification?
- If going full dark has a consequence, will going full light have any repercussions? Perhaps they become too pacifistic?
- Will receiving physical damage effect the mind? Or will receiving mental damage effect the body? Could be argued the two can't truly be separated.
- Runes seem like the most potentially confusing aspect of the system. Generic elements like water/fire are common across the genre, and are not intimidating. I'm slightly concerned people would be offput by them, or ignore them when they play an important role. Do you feel like they are adding an essential/unique element to the gameplay? Or do you have a good strategy to explain them in simple terms? People familiar with Meyers-Briggs will understand easily, but I wonder if the majority of your target audience will fall into that category.

Anyways, I really like the changes! I think some of these things will just have to be ironed out in beta testing, and may not be issues at all. Hope this helps!

Tobias 1115~5Y

I can't imagine a system which isn't difficult to balance if used in an RPG-scale project! You've brought up some interesting things here, so I'll respond to them all:

- Most players don't play games with optimal team compositions, and some opponents would be easier to tame or to kill. The average playthrough would likely involve both taming and killing based on what's easier or the player's whims.

- The Body displays are meant to look reminiscent of potion bottles more than an actual body! Arms actually were included at first (they held the stats in their hands), but were lost as I refined the design.

- Skills that alter arousal say they 'rouse/calm by 20%', etc, and the things like the gradient bars make it clear there are fixed limits and the character's current position in that range.

- The game is designed around controller input and won't use the mouse, but you can move the cursor over most things to show a description.

- It's best to see the Light/Dark thing as somewhat equivalent to HP, where fully light = full HP and fully dark = 'dead'. So there's a negative effect from being fully dark but no benefit to being fully light. Benefits from being fully light could be a specific effect some weapons or skills could use though.

- Realistically body and mind couldn't be separated, but RPG battle mechanics aren't exactly based in reality at their core! I think gameplay simplification is more important, so affecting one won't affect the other.

- I'm aware there's complexity to the runes, but to that I ask: in Pokemon, how effective would a Ghost move be against a Bug/Fairy type? How do you know? The runes are actually really simple compared to a lot of game systems, once you understand the basics. As I mentioned in my other comment, they're more inspired by the Big Five - and the OCEAN notation - than by Myers-Briggs, though an understanding of that kind of system absolutely isn't necessary. As for whether I feel they're adding anything, I wouldn't keep reusing them if I didn't! I absolutely love the idea of a gameplay system which also communicates something quite deep about the personalities of the story's characters.

I can't imagine a system which /isn't/ difficult to balance if used in an RPG-scale project! You've brought up some interesting things here, so I'll respond to them all:

- Most players don't play games with optimal team compositions, and some opponents would be easier to tame or to kill. The average playthrough would likely involve both taming and killing based on what's easier or the player's whims.

- The Body displays are meant to look reminiscent of potion bottles more than an actual body! Arms actually were included at first (they held the stats in their hands), but were lost as I refined the design.

- Skills that alter arousal say they 'rouse/calm by 20%', etc, and the things like the gradient bars make it clear there are fixed limits and the character's current position in that range.

- The game is designed around controller input and won't use the mouse, but you can move the cursor over most things to show a description.

- It's best to see the Light/Dark thing as somewhat equivalent to HP, where fully light = full HP and fully dark = 'dead'. So there's a negative effect from being fully dark but no benefit to being fully light. Benefits from being fully light could be a specific effect some weapons or skills could use though.

- Realistically body and mind couldn't be separated, but RPG battle mechanics aren't exactly based in reality at their core! I think gameplay simplification is more important, so affecting one won't affect the other.

- I'm aware there's complexity to the runes, but to that I ask: in Pokemon, how effective would a Ghost move be against a Bug/Fairy type? How do you know? The runes are actually really simple compared to a lot of game systems, once you understand the basics. As I mentioned in my other comment, they're more inspired by the Big Five - and the OCEAN notation - than by Myers-Briggs, though an understanding of that kind of system absolutely isn't necessary. As for whether I feel they're adding anything, I wouldn't keep reusing them if I didn't! I absolutely love the idea of a gameplay system which also communicates something quite deep about the personalities of the story's characters.