The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of changing Divine Dreams' protagonist from the old Mardek to a new character, a golden-hearted 'devil' called Dayvha...
For the first few months of Sindrel Song's development, the protagonist was a character called Glimmer, who was based on a couple of characters I'd used in earlier work, and who I'd been planning to include (in a different form) in Taming Dreams, had I got far enough with it.
However, a bunch of factors eventually inspired me to reinvent the protagonist as Memody, a new character, designed specifically for the novel world I was designing. Looking back, imagining Glimmer in this story feels so strange, while Memody feels like the protagonist the story was meant for.
In ∞ last week's post ∞, I wondered whether to reinvent the protagonist of Divine Dreams; whether I should 'make Mardek into a pink elf', because thats what his genetics would suggest. I've been giving that some more thought.
Here's a thing I made last night:
In MARDEK, the character Mardek was a fairly boring generic Caucasian male without all that much in the way of a personality. This, according to my old notes, was kind of the point; he was supposed to be a bland player avatar rather than the driver of his own story, an idea developed before the later, deeper story turns were.
He was refined and given greater depth and a new appearance in Taming Dreams, deeply intertwining who he was and how he looked with the new story, and I felt happy enough with that design to use it again for Divine Dreams.
The name Mardek was random; it wasn't inspired by anything. However, its similarity to the name of ∞ a Mesopotamian deity ∞ inspired me to use the name of ∞ another ∞ for his father, and the name ∞ Anunnaki ∞ (misspelled as Annunaki in the games) for the alien villains, though the characters didn't have anything in common with these mythological figures so it was shallow, superficial.
In Divine Dreams, I'm making use of Indian mythology instead, as this - and India itself - is strongly intertwined with the whole New Age world, which itself is intertwined with things like lucid dreaming, meditation, non-Christian 'spirituality' etc in the modern West, all of which have inspired aspects of the story and setting.
I also really like some concepts I played around with when designing Belief last year, where the protagonist is someone who looks like a literal devil, but who's got truly good intentions. How people might react to a character like that seems interesting to me.
So, all these things have led to this concept. It's not final, and I'm still not certain I'll keep it, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.
Originally I was just going to keep calling him Mardek, varying nothing but his appearance, but I felt that if I were making changes this drastic, I might as well go all the way and call him something different too.
After some brainstorming, the name Dayvha stood out to me. This is from the word ∞ deva ∞, meaning a god or heavenly being in Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, and New Age philosophies. It's pronounced 'DAY-vuh', not like 'diva' (as I'd naturally pronounce it), so Dayvha stresses that pronunciation while also incorporating the sunny 'day' and 'ha' and bringing it to six letters (I'm trying to give all the major characters six-letter names).
It also sounds vaguely like 'devil', plus it's amusing thinking of him being given the much more mundane nickname 'Dave'.
As mentioned in the other post, his father is now called ∞ Savitr ∞ after an Indian solar deity.
A brown-skinned Mardek would be 'representation', right? Wow, a POC protagonist, we need more of those! Virtue points! But isn't that just completely superficial?
A character who looks unusual not just to the in-game NPCs, but to the player themselves, seems more interesting to me, as it allows an opportunity to explore being different, not belonging, in a much deeper way. It'd feel uncomfortable to me exploring these themes with a brown-skinned character, like it'd be too close to issues real people face, but with someone who looks different to any actual human race, whose differentness could be a stand-in for many kinds of human differentnesses, it could avoid that, maybe? I don't know; these issues are very touchy, and I'm aware other people don't see them as I do.
I personally haven't experienced race-based issues in my life, so I'm in no position to explore those from any angle. I have however felt different all my life, like I don't belong, and I'd much rather have a protagonist who can be used to explore these issues rather than an empty vessel like Mardek was deliberately meant to be.
In Sindrel Song, I explored deeper themes in a way that might be uncomfortable to some people. With humour, sometimes, but a lot of darkness too. With this character, I like the thought of making him cheery and friendly - perhaps his Bliss mother always taught him to keep a smile on his face - but with this darkness inside which is only revealed later on, or subtly hinted at, rather than dumped all over the player from the start. It adds a depth that can be explored both by the player and the story. It could be something his possessor, Dharma, could leverage in an interesting way.
It's interesting how - to me - the more human-looking Mardek on the left here looks sweet and kind and good, but the devilish Dayvha on the right looks like he's got mischievous intentions, despite the exact same facial expression. Do you get this too?
This bubbling-up of subconscious associations based on what we've been exposed to in the past is a fundamental part of human psychology, and all kinds of discrimination are born of it.
I haven't really given too much thought to his design yet, but these hair horns and spiked 'tail' - quickly added - amuse me in the same way that Mardek's 'whale tail' cowlick(s) did. Some of the "M" motifs are still there but no longer relevant, but it's not something you'd notice unless you already knew about it.
The more time I've spent with this character, the more open I've become to the idea of using him as a more interesting protagonist. Though it did take me time, and at first he just felt so wrong because he wasn't what I was used to.
It'd be interesting - strange? - to change the main character like this while keeping all the supporting characters the same. Hmm.
I can understand why old MARDEK fans might not like it, though I'm intending to use the MARDEK Steam release to gauge how many of those fans there actually are. Currently it's only at 398 wishlists, so I'm not expecting any more sales than that (some people who've not wishlisted it will buy it, others who have wishlisted it won't buy it). Disappointing, but I've also not exactly advertised it. I'm working on that, as I've been posting about in the purple Personal entries, though it's probably a bit late now.
So I don't know how many childhoods this would ruin. Perhaps it's best to consider what works best for the story rather than keeping old characters for entirely historical reasons.
And perhaps distancing from MARDEK in this way is actually a good thing? That way, it feels less like trying to redefine the past and more like creating something new that's inspired by it.
Also, the video thing I showed up there is something I quite like, and I'd be happy to make more of those for promotional purposes and/or for Patreon patrons (they might get them first?), as I talked about in one of the personal blogs, but I don't know how interesting they'd be to people ("not very" is the feeling I get). I like them because I made them, but I'm also aware of every little detail that feels unnatural, off, and how there are aspects an observer would want that aren't there. They'd certainly be better with voice acting, but sadly that's not an option.
They could be called "Divine Scenes"!! Even if nobody cares about them, I might make some more anyway just to familiarise myself with the characters. They don't take long at all, as they're using the game's conversation system. I'd aim for under a minute with others.
Originally I had something more jokey for this one, but I felt this communicated the message I wanted to more effectively.
I haven't really done much work on Divine Dreams this week because I've been looking into breaking out of my shell for promotion purposes, which is mentally exhausting. I imagine next week will be the same since I'll be releasing MARDEK on the Wednesday. It's something that needs to be done, though, and hopefully by the end of next week I'll have my Patreon revisions sorted out and I'll be more familiar with posting on sites like Reddit.
If you got here from the MARDEK Steam release, or Sindrel Song (which I'll also be putting on sale for the next week), you can find out more about Divine Dreams by checking ∞ other posts using the "MARDEK Remake" tag ∞! (Which would get a bit silly if I do end up renaming the protagonist!)
34 COMMENTS
Dingding32167~4Y
Very interesting-- I did have the knee-jerk "I don't think I like this!" but because Deugan had the same sort of reaction it made me more sypathetic. Though the way Dayvha speaks does seem a bit too elegant?? I guess I'm just comparing it to Mardek. I really like the shorthand Dave, largely because the name Dayvha is so foreign and as you said the pronunciation isn't immediately obvious. It might even work better if the "true name" Dayvha came out later when the players and other characters have earned more trust and he started off as "Dave". The last part where Deugan called him Dave hit me hard, and it acts as a perfect demo for these scenes if you want to take it any further, as the storytelling and facial expressions are really showcased in this short. It's also a much better way of explaining why you chose to remake it in such a way, though I can imagine some people would still be swept up in *moral outrage* that they have no business to be feeling in the first place.
As a BAME in the UK I fully respect your decision not to try and portray that angle without doing in-depth research into those perspectives. Creating this character feels a lot more genuine to you and that will show far more insight than with a brown-skinned Mardek. It does make me question whether it should still be linked as a MARDEK remake though--maybe just say it's loosely based around the original series but has grown into a largely different beast altogether? Expectation setting is definitely important!
I think the difference between Mardek and Dayvha's expression is because the eyes are highlighted in Dayvha's whereas the eyebrows and smirk stand out more in Mardek.
5
Tobias 1102~4Y
One of the limitations of Mardek as a character is that he's simple, dim, and I've been thinking for quite a while now - years, probably - that if I were to make another RPG, I'd rather have an actually intelligent protagonist! I wasn't intentionally aiming to do that with this scene, though I did have it in mind, and imagined I'd get more pleasure out of writing a more verbose and thoughtful protagonist in the long term. I'm still very much experimenting though.
Does Dayvah read better than Dayvha to you?
I'd very likely have everyone refer to him as 'Dave' early on - or through most of the game, actually - but his status screen would still say 'Dayvha' (or Dayvah)! I'm reminded of the game Lufia II, where an elf character called 'Artea' in the prequel joined the party, but with the name 'Arty' shown on status screens. It was probably a translation error, but it's stuck with me for years, long after anything else in the game has, because it annoyed me so much having this character portrayed as some great and mystical hero shown with such a stupid name. Names matter!
I did write the scene in this post understanding that adapting to a character change is a process though! It's tough, but is it better to stick with something limited purely to avoid facing the obstacle??
I've been trying to make it clear for a while that this is a Reimagining and not a Remake, and I'll be doing that in whatever promotion I do too. I am wondering at this point though how many people even know about MARDEK!
Ideally I'd avoid the whole race thing entirely, since I don't want to upset anyone; I already feel bad enough about Sindrel Song's unintentional racist undertones! I just hope whatever I do with this comes across as intended...
4
vladandrei199647~4Y
I'm all for changing the main character to your vision of choice, I'm just curious how the other characters will see him in the world. In real life, a devilish-looking boy like that would be most likely killed by faithful zealots, but maybe the people of Alora Fane are more open-minded?
Also I'm curious about the "counterparts". Deugan from MARDEK is Deugan again in DD, Emela is Emeela, Steele is Steele... but Mardek is Dayvha. If Dayvha is completely another character and not a counterpart, maybe there is still a Mardek in Alora Fane (not a playable character, or maybe just a supporting one?).
Just a quick constructive note, but "Dayvha" doesn't really sound like a main character name. I understand your symbolic meaning, but a game needs a memorable name for its main protagonist, and I just don't see "Dayvha" as something memorable.
Looking forward to you advertising the games, it's not too late. A lot of devs are advertising their games on day1 of release and that seems to be for the best.
4
Tobias 1102~4Y
They'd probably be killed in the real world because of religious depictions of devils they're familiar with, but this is a world of magic and monsters where someone like this would look different, yes, but more like them than the monsters. So enough to be wary of him, but not enough to be hostile on sight. He's also likely grown up in his little village all his life, so he's not met strangers who'd have that reaction. But it could be an interesting thing to explore!
I see this as an evolution of the Mardek character, so no need for a replacement since that'd complicate things. I like the idea that he and Deugan were each other's only friends growing up, but where then would a Mardek character come in?
I think your issue with the name isn't that it doesn't sound right ("DAY-va"), but that it doesn't look right, with that foreign "yvh" cluster in the middle, which I understand and which I was concerned about myself. How about Dayvah? Does that register the same to you? It could go either way, and that might work better. I just went with Dayvha because I saw of few of those consonant-followed-by-h things when looking up Indian mythology, and it means it has 'ha' in there. Dayvha also reads as 'DAY-va' to me, while Dayvah reads as 'day-VAAH'.
Out of curiosity, which RPG protagonists have good 'main character names', in your opinion? I've been trying to think of a few, mostly from the Final Fantasy series:
Cecil
Bartz
Cloud
Squall
Zidane
Tidus
Vaan
Lightning
Noctis
Of those, Bartz always made me laugh because it looks like 'butts' or 'farts', and I never knew how to pronounce Zidane ('zi-DAN'? I always said 'zi-DAYN'). They're all either two syllables or one, usually with a harsh consonant sound. They kept up a theme of 'weather names'.
Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles comes to mind as a name I laughed at for the first few minutes of playing the game, and still find really ugly.
Most JRPGs I've played have such generic protagonists I can't even remember their names!
Mardek is at least easy to pronounce and there's essentially no chance of confusion about spelling. The only thing that bothers me about it is its meaninglessness!
Names are important though, so I do need to get it right.
3
Maniafig219~4Y
I am curious whether we're going to meet anyone from Sindrel Song in Taming Dreams. I suppose any party member would have to be a Wintrel, or maybe Sindrel lifespans aren't so short if they get taken out of their petals?
I did wonder the other day whether most Sindrel are still Sorrow sentiment. Looking at Sindrel Song, is does seem half the cast is Sorrow (Course, Memody, Dhurge) and half are not (Hearth/Bliss, Vivace/Creation, Hammer/Courage). What do you think? Maybe they're actually all Destruction!!
Honestly Mardek's skin still looks weird to me, his skin looks like the peel of a fruit or something!
Anyway, I'm personally very fond of the Taming Dreams version of Mardek, it feels like the Definitive Edition of the character in a sense. I think when you first revealed Mardek's TD design I liked it from the start? It's hard to remember! I don't feel any such attachment to this design however.
You actually mentioned this in another reply, but does the whole "Mardek looks like a demon" thing really mean anything when the characters in the setting don't make that association? It's not exactly like Tieflings where people know they have traces of demon blood, it'd probably look more like he has a weird skin condition.
Dayvha sounds too similar to Dharma!! That's the first thing I actually thought of, that the names sound much more similar than Mardek and Rohoph did, or Mardek and Dharma. They even share most of the same letters, at first sight someone might almost think it's an anagram even though it isn't.
The nickname Dave also makes me think of like, Daves I might have known personally, or Dave from Homestuck. It's weird! I don't know any Steeles or Deugans or Emeelas but I know Daves!
I got the impression Mardek's alienation would stem from the literal alien in his head, right?
The Mardek on the right looks much more untrustworthy! I think part of it is also how he has yellow sclera. From this angle it's also hard to tell whether he has two spikes coming out of his hair or just one, or maybe an oddly shaped pompadour. Maybe he's look more trustworthy if he had Goblin ears instead of Elf ears. Never trust an Elf.
Anyway I still much prefer the Taming Dreams design.
Also, yes, I wouldn't mind seeing more of those silly scenes. We could have heartwarming discussions between all the cast members, or much more importantly you could make the Miasma talk to each other. Vicious make-out scenes with Fungoblins and Steele.
Honestly when I need to name characters I try to put as little thought into it as possible, which is how I wound up with all kinds of stupid names for important characters!
3
Tobias 1102~4Y
One of the party members is a wintrel! A new one, though; I thought about using Memody, since the original point of Sindrel Song was to prepare Glimmer for her eventual role in whatever I did with the MARDEK story, but things changed with both stories and it no longer worked.
I hadn't actually thought of the sindrels' sentiments, though the ones you have here make sense! Hearth as Bliss seems the weakest fit, but it fits him more than the others. It's pleasing to me how many turned out Sorrow despite not doing that intentionally!
Could you be feeling this way about this character because you're still seeing him as Mardek? It's unavoidable of course since he's rather rudely stealing so many details of Mardek's story role, his model, etc, but it's best to see it as an entirely new character... who also happens to have grown up with Deugan as his best friend. In this alternate universe!
The Into the Spider-Verse film comes to mind, where there are the alternate spider-people, who are so different to the familiar Peter Parker spiderman but in their universes they play the same role... or something.
I still need to decide exactly how to handle the 'devil' concept in-universe. I'm imagining NPCs could call him that because the player will have associations with the concept, though obviously they don't have Christianity or its depiction of devils and demons in Alora Fane. There are a few ideas that come to mind; I'll need to do some brainstorming.
Dayvha (or Dayvah, whichever) is also similar to Deugan. But the game is DD and Dayvha + Deugan is DD and Dayvha + Dharma is DD and it's all symmetrical and pleasing and and?!? Or rather, it's annoying, but Dharma is a mythological thing which I can't really change, as is 'deva', and 'devil' starts with a D too, and I'm sticking with the six letters thing...
I like using Dave as an RPG protagonist name because people will already know people with that name! Cloud, Squall, Shulk, Sora, Celador, Zaxus, Zae'marius, Drizzt, Dave! It sounds silly. I'm tempted to add a second character also called Dave because that'd be even sillier (though it's something that happens in real life all the time), but no obvious place for that has jumped out just yet.
The Homestuck Dave is an interesting example since I also know people with that name and had associations for it, which made the character feel wrong at first, but through repeated exposure the name feels natural for him now.
It's interesting actually looking at Star Wars: Obi Wan Kenobi! Han Solo! Leia Organa! Chewbacca! Luke Skywalker. It feels natural to us now because we're so used to it, but I've known Lukes! It's like calling him Dave Skywalker. Are there any other Star Wars characters who have a name actual Earth people have? It's not even short for anything more fantastical!
I'll stick with this design at least for a couple of weeks - and I'll keep refining it - and see how it feels after some time. Obviously any change like this is going to require time to adjust to, but from the thought I've given it so far, this design does open up a whole lot more story possibilities than sticking with something I came up with on a whim when I was a teenager, even after the refinements I've given that. If I'm going to be making multiple chapters over several years, it's important to have a protagonist I really feel comfortable associating my work - and by extension myself - with!
2
Ptyrell37~4Y
Please add a second Dave somewhere. The thought alone has me cracking up!
2
astralwolf91~4Y
Welp, personally not keen on the change because it ruins my childhood headcanon, but to each his own
0
Tobias 1102~4Y
But did you have no issue with the brown-skinned Mardek?
0
astralwolf91~4Y
Yeah, no issues with that. I felt it gave him more character, better backstory etc but it was still mardek.
0
Tama_Yoshi82~4Y
I have some conflicting thoughts on Dayvah. First is that I really love the trope "I am different, but not meaningfully, and therefore I am unfairly oppressed." But I feel that this is not a replacement for MARDEK; just an entirely new character.
From what I've gleaned so far, Dayvah would be more "oppressed" and "outgroup", whereas MARDEK was more easy-going and naturally in-group. Dayvah would also be more intelligent and perceptive, whereas MARDEK was more aloof by virtue of not really understanding what was going on.
So they feel like completely different characters to me, it's just that you haven't framed it this way yet, so I'm a bit confused.
I would *probably* find it more interesting if you blended some of Mardek's signature traits into this new canvas, though. I like aloof extroverted characters that use their "silliness" to tear through awkward social situations.
Say, for instance, Dayvah was not "oppressed" in a psychological sense, but had learned to cope socially by acting like "everything was fine" and aggressively trying to make friends regardless. He could do so either in an intelligent or dumb manner:
"We don't welcome demons here."
(dumb, smiling) "Oh. Do you hello them?"
I was trying to find a "clever" example, but then I realized the above exchange could very well have been made by a socially intelligent, joking character. Deescalating social interactions are too rare in video games.
I guess my main worry is that you often associate "intelligence" with doom-and-gloom, but it doesn't have to be that way. Maybe MARDEK is only dumb on the surface, but really perceptive on the inside? Not even sure I want Dayvah to be clever. You already have a lot of more intelligent characters, and having less intelligent characters can really round-out the dynamics. What if Dayvah was one of Mardek's mind, like Dharma is? And his skin color and hair changes when Dayvah speaks? Devil/Human/Angel? Thoughts.
Someone mentioned the new character model looks less trustworthy. Maybe if you rounded the horns and ponytail? I know sharp edges are subconsciously associated with negative social traits while round edges are associated with more pleasant traits.
----
As for the whole "brown-people" question, I think changing the skin color to red has some effects, but they're subtle. In sociology, "White" is more often used to refer to the idea of a "normal," socially-neutral person, so it really isn't just about skin-color. That said, a lot of contention with black representation is that "black people" have a culture that is often poorly represented (if you ever hear of code-switching, that's usually a pretty important aspect of the black experience). Changing the skin color to red could help distance yourself from the pretension that you are broaching that kind of stuff, although people are forgiving when it comes to fantasy settings, I find.
The biggest pitfall to avoid, I think, is the way in which you frame Dayvah's "otherness." The mainstream people will likely never really care, but I've seen contention about the way movies like Zootopia broached the problems of racism. If you've seen Zootopia, it's a good movie, but the message is muddied a bit by adding a "predisposed to violence" part, like the kind of biological determinism that an actual racist would use (incorrectly, as it is pseudoscience when applied to black people). The way to entirely avoid the pitfall would be to not make overt references to problems of racism, AND hammer down the idea that the problem is socio/cultural and not "genetic" (say, demons can cast black magic... and black magic is generally a GOOD thing, but for complex socio-cultural and historical reasons, other societies have learned to associate this with evil-doing).
Youtuber Jack Saint did a couple videos exploring the trope of racism as explored in fantasy settings. They contain some interesting insights.
I remember the movie Blight as an example of a very clumsily racism-broaching fantasy setting, to the point where it was cringe. The parallels were too on the nose, the historical lore suggested the orcs actually did contribute to a whole lot of evil-doing (which they had grown out of or something?). Blight felt like it was written by normies high-fiving themselves for explaining why racism was bad. That's what I mean when I say it's on the nose. Like, of course racism is bad. Say something useful, too, maybe.
6
Tobias 1102~4Y
Have you ever written a story where the planning took you somewhere different than where you started regarding the protagonist, to the point where they weren't even the same character anymore? I wonder how often it happens in the hidden behind-the-scenes of story creation.
I suppose this is me feeling restricted by trying to use a character I came up with in a completely different life stage as the leading man, where making various tweaks to make him more palatable weren't enough so I felt a bigger change was necessary. There are other cast members I've already done this with, though I've not talked about them yet, and of course they're not the protagonist so they're not as obvious or as big of a deal.
The way I've been seeing it in my head so far is that Dayvha/Dayvah (I could go with either spelling) is unusually 'gifted'; this angle is more familiar to me, and it's a way of not making it about race. The character doesn't really have a 'race' as such; he doesn't have a 'people' he represents, with their own culture and everything. His appearance is more like a deformity if anything, since nobody looks like he does (even the Lucen aren't 'his people' since he's got more Bold blood than Lucen).
This is why I'm gravitating towards making him intelligent. I also like exploring what it'd be like for someone 'gifted' like this who feels they don't belong with others, but they've been encouraged and treated wonderfully by their parents, and they have at least one good friend. His parents - and his personality from his runes and element - have all inspired him to keep positive for the most part rather than being beaten down by the reality of his situation, but it's when those things are removed that he's really faced with it and the discomfort starts to arise. So in that way it's also about leaving a bubble and finding the world is harsher than you knew, like someone who grew up in a royal family trying to make it among the unwashed masses.
Something like that. I'm still brainstorming!
Race would unavoidably be at least hinted at, not deliberately but just because of the visible nature of his otherness, so I actually want to avoid making him stupid so as to reduce the risk of making it seem like saying people with darker skin are stupid!
2
Ptyrell37~4Y
"The character doesn't really have a 'race' as such; he doesn't have a 'people' he represents, with their own culture and everything. His appearance is more like a deformity if anything, since nobody looks like he does (even the Lucen aren't 'his people' since he's got more Bold blood than Lucen)."
I know you aren't necessarily trying to tie this into a racial issue, but I relate a lot to this being half Japanese-half Caucasian. In the US, I'm considered asian. In Japan, I'm considered white. There is no setting where I feel like I'm a part of the majority. It's why this Langston Hughes poem struck me to the core when I read it in high school [LINK] .
5
Tobias 1102~4Y
I was wondering about the mixed-race experience, since that's the closest thing to what Dayvha is. Is it something that's a frequent cause of negative feelings in your life? Or positive ones? Mixed? Do you know others who are also mixed-race?
While people in the real world with parents of mixed races might feel like they're not entirely a part of either culture, they're at least aware of the cultures their parents are from. In Dayvah's world, nobody knows what the Lucen are, there's no intermingling at all, so Bold culture is all he knows, and there aren't any other Bold/Lucen people anywhere.
It's similar actually to the concept of alien hybrids, which are a common theme in UFOlogy, though I don't know of any stories with characters who are those!
3
Ptyrell37~4Y
It's something I'm reminded of in small ways randomly throughout the week, but am very used to by now so it doesn't cause a strong positive or negative emotion either way. On the whole, more negative feelings in my life. But I can also appreciate the different perspective that has given me at this point, so positive in that regard.
Growing up I had a lot of multiracial friends, but almost always different races than myself. Not sure if that was more due to having a different skin color, or being from similar financial backgrounds. Probably both.
2
Alban12320~4Y
This new model of mardek looks good but i think there might be a problem, if Emeela is hidding her ears because she is of a different race than why Mardek isn't hidding his ears, or why would Emeela feel different when Mardek looks even more creepier, or why is she so afraid to show her true self when mardek has the same problem, maybe changing mardek into an Elf might ruin Emeela backstory (because she also has elf ears). So if you really change Mardek there, you may need to do some more changes in the game.
Also another question, why do you use so much the number 6, even in choosing the names? Because i went to see the meaning of the nr 666 and i found that it represent the devil in real life, is this why you want him to look like a devil so much, i mean it's really bizarre when i see you always talking you know about magic, aliens, devils, human possesion by alien entities, the number 6 etc. I've been playing Mardek since 2007 and i still play it, and i'm really a big fan of you and your work, but i really need to ask, are you using all these devil things just because you want to make the game more interesting or something, or is it because you really enjoy this kind of things (related to Devil)?
2
Tobias 1102~4Y
The contrast between how Emeela deals with her 'otherness' and how Mardek does is something I meant to mention, actually, but forgot! It's something I played around with when planning Belief's characters, months ago, and it'd be nice to make use of it here. Both characters are objectively different to others, but Emeela's personality causes her to feel ashamed, to try to hide her difference, whereas Dayvha, because of his personality, doesn't. Their different upbringings have been important too (his parents told him he was fine how he was, hers told her to hide who she was).
I've been using the number 6 as a theme because it was originally the number of petals in the aster icon (the flower), then I found it coming up in other places, and found a sort of pleasing symmetry when incorporating it into other aspects too. It's a nice number since it's not too many or too few.
I hadn't actually thought about the 666 thing at all! I do find all the paranormal/occult stuff interesting, though not because I'm a loyal follower of Satan or anything silly like that. It's more like boredom with mundane reality, being fascinated by anything other, anything beyond that. Wondering about questions yet unanswered. It's great material for fantasy!
6
Jared_F3~4Y
I like the new protagonist design, though I'm a bit iffy about changing his name. That's probably just because of nostalgia though, the actual name of the character is far less important than their design or background, which I feel would ultimately benefit from this change. That being said, I do feel as though Mardek is a bit more interesting than some variant of deva, as indian religious themes have been a bit over-used in media as of late while mesopotamian/sumerian mythology has been under utilized comparatively.
Mardek simply being a slightly dim, happy-go-lucky sort of character wasn't particularly interesting to me personally anyhow, at that point having him be a self insert would likely be superior. Giving him a truly alien aspect like this has a lot of potential though, and is likely worth exploring more.
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Tobias 1102~4Y
I wonder what you're thinking of when you say Indian mythology's been overused! I thought I was being interesting since I mostly see Christian mythology everywhere, but I probably don't consume as much media as I should considering I make my own.
To be clear, I'm not aiming to make a self-insert here; maybe with the 'being different for being bright' aspect, but I'll be retaining the positive outlook which I don't have myself. Similar to Mardek, but mentally brighter, with a thought-out philosophy rather than being oblivious. It's a character type I've not actually explored before, which is part of the reason it's interesting to me.
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Jared_F3~4Y
I'm a big ttrpg and webcomic fan, so I'm exposed to people trying to branch out more often than in other mediums. Stuff like Kill Six Billion Demons, Mage:the awakening (which to be fair draws from everything under the sun), Arrows of Indra, and a few other works that are too forgettable to be mentioned in this list use Indian mythology to varying degrees. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to use this a source of inspiration mind you, just that it isn't as novel as you might think. The new-age philosophies of the 1960's and 70's drew heavily on these sources as well, leading to a bit of cultural osmosis in which people become familiar with individual terms or concepts, bits and pieces. Mesopotamian/sumerian mythology has always been popular in academic circles, and the occultist community certainly never stopped caring about this particular source of lore, but the average person is less likely to know anything about the topic compared to the Indian mythos because it was never used in such a public or widespread way. This is all unimportant though, novelty is far from the most important factor in storytelling after all.
Anyhow, good luck with your continued work on this project. If you want an example of a story involving a dialectic between cynicism and idealism, positivity and negativity, I'd reccomend checking out the comic book Flex Mentallo, only if you have time of course. It is a superhero comic which tackles how unrealistic the classic superhero is, but then uses that to make valid points about the necessity of dreams and seeking out a better future, despite the improbability and seeming incongruity of it all. It isn't your typical trite message about how "you just need to keep your chin up, son", it explores both sides of the argument fairly. It feels similar to what you are aiming for with this new version of "mardek". You might find it helpful in composing your own thoughts on the matter, though I'd also recommend looking up explanatory articles afterwards because of how complex and filled with symbolism the story is.
Anyhow, I'm excited for this new game regardless of what form it ends up taking!
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Tobias 1102~4Y
Interesting to hear where else Indian mythology has been used, though I feel those things might be fairly niche anyway so maybe in the indie games domain, this might at least be a little bit different to the usual?
The main thing though is that I didn't know anything about Mesopotamian mythology myself when making MARDEK! I still don't. I just stole names without even using their meanings, purely because the name Mardek sounded like Marduk (though I probably heard the term 'Annunaki' in one of those ANCIENT ALIENS!!1 kinds of things I found entertaining and had that association too). It feels shallow to me now, annoying.
I've got a more intimate familiarity with the New Age stuff though, so while I'm not exactly an expert in any of the Indian mythology exactly, I suppose what I'm doing is drawing on that New Age familiarity and using these mythological names due to the connection there. I'm also trying to make use of meanings instead of just borrowing words in a superficial sense; Mardek has nothing to do with Marduk, but Dayvha has at least something to do with devas, for example.
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Falcon62~4Y
While I previously said that I feel like it's fine either way, I have done some more thinking about it now. My overall stance is still the same insofar as I do not feel like my enjoyment of the game will be lower no matter which option you end up going with, but I have some insights on the choice.
Divine Dreams is not MARDEK; it takes inspiration from MARDEK, but it is ultimately a different story, with different themes. I feel like changing the main character's name would drive that point home and make people see it less like MARDEK, ultimately making it less likely that they'll be disappointed it's not exactly as they want/remember.
Those who know the original are still going to recognize that the main character is inspired by Mardek, primarily due to his personality. While he may not be goofy all the time, from what you've said it seems as if that's certainly the first thing a player would be exposed to. Some hints of greater depths in Mardek's personality appeared at the end of MARDEK as well, with him having trouble handling Deugan's death and then getting angry at Rohoph for his actions.
Dayvha/Dayvah is ultimately still inspired by Mardek while not *being* Mardek, which I believe is the entire point. He is not completely unrecognizable like Blight, but he is clearly not meant to be exactly the same person.
It's interesting how ultimately superficial things like minor changes in appearance (his face, hair, and pose are all still the same!) and a change of name make people strongly prefer either one or the other!
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facefacefaceface4~4Y
I like the Divine Scenes a lot!! Your dialogue is huge reason I like your games so much, so all these placeholder-y conversations just make me all the more excited to play a game packed full of the real thing. I'd appreciate them as Patreon rewards.
I think the name Dayvha works better than Dayvah, because it makes more sense with the reasons you've given for it, and Dayvah seems pretty contrived, particularly the "vah" ending looks obviously artificial to me. The pronunciation confusion could probably be sorted out by having one NPC ask how it's pronounced early on, though really I'm not too sure how many ways there would be to mispronounce Dayvha?
If you think Mardek is going to stop you telling the story you want to, you should probably change him sooner rather than later, so I think you're probably fine changing him now. By the time you've fleshed out Dayvha's design to a place where you're happy with him, the change will probably feel a lot more natural. I agree with the other people who have commented in that it's weird seeing only Mardek change, with the rest of the cast looking mostly like their old counterparts, but that dissonance would probably be ironed out fairly quickly once we started actually playing the game and seeing the newly designed characters interacting with each other.
In terms of exploring your own experience of feeling different, it probably is a wise idea to steer clear of using a PoC main character, though the links to racism because of Dayvha's physical differentiation still seem a little weird. Perhaps you could make it so that instead of being judged on his appearance, he has some magical side effect on the people around him that triggers them to act differently towards him, or it's just the way he acts in social situations that gets him othered? Might be completely not what you were going for with the redesign, but I think something like that might be easier for you to use?
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MarninPL33~4Y
To be fair, I like concept of Dayvha. Demon-looking figure, who despite being good-hearted is constantly excluded due to his appearance. However, I don't think it is a good idea to replace the main character with him. It's not because I'm fond of Mardek due to nostalgia (not only, at least), but because I don't think he will fit a spot of protagonist nicely. To me, the interesting part of Mardek was his connection to Dharma. Apart from that, he was mostly bland. Still, in my opinion it worked, because it left a fairly-interesting and plot-relevant main character that doesn't outshine the others all the time, which is good. When it comes to Dayvha, him being A DEMON and THE PROTAGONIST and THE ONE POSSESSED BY DHARMA is a bit too much (unless you let go of the whole Dharma thing, but it would do much good from my viewpoint). However, I would consider making him a separate character, as his concept is really charming!
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MarninPL33~4Y
Also, I think that you have succeeded with making Mardek very relatable. It's easy to imagine that you are actually him during his adventures, which is cool. With Dayvha, this would be hard to achieve. (Also, when I was talking about Dharma in my original entry I mean't that removing him would not do much good. I can't edit it right now, so I will put it here)
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JohnnyBoi45~4Y
So I really enjoyed the dialogue sequence you made. Very meta and certainly made me think. So here's my deal with Dave - I don't have a major issue with the name itself or even the visuals (the yellow eyes gotta go though), but more what they represent for the character and the story. The name and look don't really matter at the end of the day, but if you create a completely different person as the protagonist you are inevitably telling a different story. I know one reason I cared about Divine Dreams is because I looked forward to seeing a conclusion to Mardek's story, even if it was slightly changed, it was still his. Dayvha just seems like the exact opposite of everything Mardek was, and that ripples out into everything when you're making a character-driven narrative. I might just be predisposed against "special" or "uniquely gifted" protagonists but it seems so cliche to me, and I always felt Mardek's personality worked well with the whole Rohoph plotline. I understand where your desire to tell this kind of story comes from, but I just want to preserve something out of the original games so that it feels like a reimagining, and more importantly a conclusion to Mardek's (or Dave's, whatever he ends up being called) story. It isn't childhood-ruining if you go forward with the whole shabang of changes. It's just a bit disappointing, as someone who has followed the development of Divine Dreams since the beginning, that the so-called "Mardek Remake" is really about someone else entirely.
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Astreon152~4Y
In a previous post you were trying to make your characters look devilish when they were corrupted by darkness.
Couldn't Dayvah, and it's look (pinkish-devilish) be Mardek's darkness counterpart ?
And then, maybe, each of the playable cast could have something similar ?
Unless you wanna use it for an arc of the story, like the dark zodiac knights were the evil counterparts of the bronze knights in Saint Seiya.
Anyway, if you change the main character, then it's not a Mardek reimagining, it's something else entirely. Not that it's a problem, but drifting further and further away from the initial project will land you on the shore of something else entirely...
Also, if you change the MC's temper, will it still fit with Rohoph's punchlines ? Will there still be those silly clumsy naive jokes ?
The whole Mardek game was created around Mardek, as you said (even the Anunnaki came after). You can't change the latter without majorly impacting the former.
Also, i think what someone meant in an earlier comment to this post was that "Dayvah" sounds generic, like a race name, instead of a first name. Well, guess that's fairly subjective, but i have the same feeling when i read and pronounce it.
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DetroitLolcat7~4Y
I've thought about the name change, and I'm less enthusiastic on this change compared to others. For some reason I didn't mind it at all when Mardek's skin tone/appearance changed (in fact, I now think of the brown-skinned Mardek when I read his name), but the name change is nagging at me.
I'm sure it would be a change I'd get used to, and it's difficult to tell whether I just have nostalgia goggles on or if the name Mardek is more appealing than Dayvha or Dayvha. The shortening of it to "Dave" is weird to me, too; almost too silly for its own good. I think one reason for that is that it's not immediately obvious how to pronounce "Dayvha" when you read it (Deva? Should I emphasize the "Day"?), plus it's a name that seems really easy to misspell and subsequently mispronounce.
When I was typing this post, I probably misspelled the name Dayvah ten times. Was it Davyah? Dayvah? Davyha? Dayvha? All of those spellings would be pronounced slightly different, while Mardek sounds exactly as it's spelled. I think the simplicity of the name Mardek is appealing. When you look at the name Mardek, it's extremely obvious how it's pronounced. If someone said the name Mardek without showing you how it was spelled, it would be easy to spell. That's not true of Dayvha.
I get wanting to change the name and I don't think I'd be too disappointed in the change should it happen. Plus, as someone who played the original Mardek, it feels weird that his name is changing while the party members aren't? There is a lot of symbolism in the Dayvha name, and it's neat that it combines "Day", "Deva", and "Devil". Although I'm wondering if it's a little too clever for its own good, because it very much feels like the symbolism is coming at the expense of readability.
That being said, the brown-skinned character looks a fair bit better than the devil one IMO, and Dayvah reads a lot better than Davyha.
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RulerOfPride4~4Y
Okay. I need to give my opinion here. I've been following you for awhile, just made an account and I've posted a few times on the old Disqus comment system. I'll be blunt. I don't really like the direction for this new version of Mardek, BUT there is one way you could sell it that I think would be great.
Right now, I feel like you're kinda just changing it just to change it. Which would be fine if you weren't marking it as a "retelling of MARDEK". Seeing the character changed so heavily to the point where even you yourself said it's a different character doesn't sit well with me or I imagine other fans of it. My opinion of it would probably end there if not for the rest of the demo conversation video. I love the idea of Dayvha almost being some sort of cosmic hole character who in the eyes of characters just sort of replaced Mardek one day. Meanwhile Dayvha is going around saying "Guys??? I've always been here?" It's really powerful having that and having a dynamic of Deugan doubting this person who claims to know him so while with the contrast of having Dayvha feel hurt but still caring for his long time friend is such a great story concept that you can only really do with a game like Divine Dreams since it is a retelling of MARDEK. It adds a whole enough layer to the story and a feeling of the original MARDEK games mattered in a sense y'know? I honestly feel like just adding that dynamic would really help others like Dave a whole lot more.
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Ptyrell37~4Y
Pretty timely post you've got here. With so many protests/riots going on in the US right now regarding George Floyd, I think a lot of us are thinking more and more about the impacts of race and skin color on how humans treat each other.
I like the idea of the main character being "different". Mardek was great as a blank slate, but your motifs have evolved a lot since then, and you obviously find inspiration in including in your games what you've learned in psychology and observed in the world. I definitely like the change.
With that said, I'm a liiiittle hesitant to hear that the main character will have an Indian name and look like the devil... Also, using Indian mythology and taking it out of context for a game does sound a bit like cultural appropriation. If not the backstory elements, then certainly the name Savitr would be. Since (from my understanding) there are people in the world that still worship Savitr today, correct? Doesn't seem right to take the name of a deity other people worship, and apply it out of context to a video game. Now I could be wrong in thinking that, and I've been wrong before about this stuff, but I'd be curious to hear what you/others think.
On a different note, the facial expressions of Dayvha and Deugan are really good in that scene. Conveys a ton and is quite powerful. Dayvha's comments on the sanctity of memories instantly made me think about this podcast episode that left an impression on me. I think you might like it! [LINK] (first 35 min)
Some people may wonder why Dave doesn't just cut his hair differently.
Oh and if it helps, I read Dayvha as DAY-vuh the first time seeing it, and was able to see how Dave was derived from it easily. I'd prefer that over Dayvah.
PS. I feel like I'm often playing the devil's advocate in my feedback (no pun intended). So I hope you find this all constructive and not annoying.
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Tobias 1102~4Y
I'm not American, so I only have a vague awareness of all that's going on there at the moment, but it sounds awful, and it's not really the best time to be talking about this! I just hope it's obvious that I'm not intending to say anything about race; I'm just trying to use fantasy concepts to explore interesting and relatable aspects of the human condition.
Isn't casually borrowing a whole bunch of often-unrelated mythological names - ancient and current - a standard part of JRPGs? Final Fantasy's Shiva, Ifrit, etc jump immediately to mind. It's why I did it in MARDEK; it's so common it felt expected. The Wikipedia article about Savitr even has a brief Popular Culture section about its use as a DC character and a god in a novel.
I get a warning page when clicking that link!! Maybe the person's experiencing website issues like I did recently...
I wondered whether Dayvha might have styled his hair deliberately. I lived in Australia as a teenager, and as a skinny, bespectacled, British nerd there right around the time the first Harry Potter films came out, people at school sometimes teased me for looking like the protagonist of that. Rather than being upset, though, I used a small stick from the ground to pretend I was casting spells, which made people laugh. I can see Dayvha having a similar lighthearted reaction to being likened to a devil, in contrast to Emeela hiding what she is.
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Ptyrell37~4Y
The big difference between referencing an ancient culture and a modern one is that there are people today who actively practice those beliefs. It is very different to reference a Roman god than a Hindu one. There are ~1 billion people in the world who practice Hinduism today. Taking something that is sacred in someone else's culture and applying it out of context in a fairly belittled way in a video game is a form of cultural appropriation. If other JRPGs and DC comics have done similar, then they too have appropriated those cultures for their benefit.
Now I'm not saying you or any of those creators are racists or anything! I'm sure nobody had any ill intentions of doing such a thing. But just because nobody means any harm, doesn't mean that harm can't be done. At least this example is much more minor than say the NFL's Washington "Redskins".
How you borrow aspects of New Age idealism and apply them to your fictional race may or may not be fine. Kinda depends on how you do it, but I'm guessing you will do a good job with it. But using the name of a god that people of a different culture still deify today is questionable at best.
Note sure why that link didn't work. Here is another. But to summarize if you don't listen, basically people treat memories as concrete facts, but they are subject to a lot more change than people realize. [LINK]
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MontyCallay99~4Y
I like the "Divine Scenes" thing a lot! An interesting way to build up the world outside of the game and to promote it! I'd be looking forward to seeing more of these if it were a regular Patreon reward, or something. It reminds me of back when you had considered making an animated talky webseries out of the whole thing instead of developing a new game.
I'm not entirely sure what I think about Dayvha! I actually like the idea of having a protagonist with a more interesting personality than MARDEK did, for sure. But this specific design (especially in the conversation scenes) feels somewhat over the top, almost comedic! Aww, he's like a little devil! It might clash a bit in terms of tone if you want to include serious themes about discrimination and so forth.
The difficult thing when "reimagining" MARDEK is, of course, trying to find a balance between old and new, and this always comes up when you make a change like this. I don't hate the new character, but the way you have to justify every change you make and have to consider to what extent this "ruins" or dilutes the MARDEK *formula*, almost makes me wonder - why does the story have to be a MARDEK reimagining at all? It feels like you have to constantly limit yourself by having it in that frame. Those that remember the old games might get confused by the changes, and being a "MARDEK reimagining" won't mean a lot to newcomers who you're trying to promote the game to.
This makes me ask myself - what is it about this story and these characters that has lead you to reimagine them again and again, over the years? Beyond, I suppose, the success of the originals.
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Ampersand68~4Y
Hm, I think if you're going to change the main character, the same should go for the others. I actually think Deugan was more "generic" than Mardek, to be honest, and I think his character design is really not going to help endear the audience to him (he both looks and acts like the stereotypical idea of a "simp"). Then again, I don't know what plans you have for that character, so maybe that direction is on-point.
As for Dayvah himself, I think "Dayv" as a nickname fits better with the fantasy setting. Despite being pronounced the exact same as "Dave", it's just different enough that it keeps you from breaking suspension of disbelief every time you look at his name- like with Jaime Lannister or Eddard (Ned) Stark in Game of Thrones.
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