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Depression Spike; AFC Remake, kind of?
3 years ago2,197 words
I've been very bad mentally these past few days! I want to distract myself by writing out another possible side project idea: a remake of sorts of Alora Fane: Creation, in which you can build your own little quests for others to play...

I had a surprising spike of depression over the weekend; my mood's been far worse than it has been in months. I was going to write about the reasons why... but I'll just vaguely describe it as 'family stuff'; some embarrassingly little thing that set off an avalanche of negative thoughts, a trauma trigger, something like that. I spent almost all yesterday in bed feeling like a corpse (though I did manage to get in a couple of hours of Atonal Dreams work in the morning), and only ate a few mouthfuls of food all day (for which I've been suffering today). I haven't been that bad in a long time, maybe since the brain surgery. And it came seemingly out of nowhere.

It's strange, watching myself enact these terrible behaviours - lying there unmoving, barely even breathing - and thinking "I could get up if I wanted to, I should!" and then just... not. Like I have two minds, one which wants the misery to continue, gets some sick pleasure out of wallowing in it, while another, weaker one knows it's bad for me, believes the whole thing might even be pretending, an act, but can't actually muster up the energy to snap out of it. Hard to put into words. Would not recommend.

I'll be having a phone call with my cancer doctor (or her lackey, which it was last time) on Friday about the results of my scan. If the cancer's not come back, I'll mention the mental health issues and see if they could fast-track me seeing a therapist or something... though I've done this before and it didn't lead anywhere. If they can't clearly help, I'll contact my GP next week. Finding a good and useful therapist isn't a trivial thing, but I need to try to at least do something since even when I feel I'm making progress by myself, I always find myself falling back into a pit again... (If the cancer has come back, then my life's pretty much over probably and none of this will matter. Hopefully I won't be told that.)

Anyway. Instead of writing about that miserable mess (I should keep posts about this separate from those about game ideas, but... eh), I've chosen instead to write about another, different game idea I could work on as a side project (since I've been too depressed to work all morning but I want to do something worthwhile with this time).



In case you're reading this but don't know about my past projects, I worked on something called Alora Fane: Creation a few years back, which was less a game and more a tool for making short 'quests', inspired by the 'toolset' of the game Neverwinter Nights with which I spent many an after-school evening bringing my own stories to life. I made it in Flash, but never finished it to the point of a proper release because of - surprise, surprise - mental health issues. Flash was dying at that point anyway, though.



The aim of the project was to allow people to make short, simple adventures rather than sweeping epics or entire games, which they should ideally be able to share. It was set in Alora Fane, presented as a generic fantasy world, and allowed you to create short stories where you talked to and/or battled fantasy races and monsters; little bite-sized familiar RPG experiences.



What I found interesting though was how the people who made quests with it tended not to bother with including pointless obstacle battles, instead preferring to focus on the far more customisable character interactions. Battles tended to be used to aid these interactions and further the story.



I've been experimenting for a few years with 'combat' systems that use familiar mechanics, but different metaphors for what all the number-juggling represents: eg social interactions rather than physical fighting. Taming Dreams blended that with typical fantasy RPG stuff in that you conjured up fireballs but ~with your mind~ etc, but I embraced the social angle fully most recently with Belief, which I worked on briefly around the end of 2019.

I still like that a lot! I return to the brief bit of gameplay I made every so often, and I ended up incorporating its primary side-swapping mechanic into Atonal Dreams. But AD is more like TD in that it combines the mental stuff with general fantasy combat, so it doesn't really scratch the same 'silly social encounters' itch.

For a while I've been brainstorming various ideas for something that'd combine these silly social 'battles' with gameplay that involves short runs rather than commitment to a linear story. One that I worked on just a few months ago - and must have written about at some point, though if I did I can't remember when - involved trying to spread a religion of your naming across a procedural world; the aim was to convince everyone socially to believe what you believe and not what they believe.



I got as far as beginning work on a prototype, in which I experimented with a card-based battle system, where the cards represented what came to the character's mind at the time rather than a free and deliberate choice. Each card/skill had a 'topic', allowing you to steer the conversation. For example, using a 'Lore'-topic skill would increase the multiplier for other Lore skills and make them more likely to appear in your hand next turn, while reducing the multiplier for other topics.

It felt clunkier in practice than it did in my mind, though, unfortunately.

I feel that with some refining, something like this could work better for a resurrection of Alora Fane: Creation than a standard violence-based fantasy battle system. Here are some thoughts about how that might work:



The Field

It was important that AFC quests be kept short, because I knew that when I was given complete freedom about the scope of my creations - as I was in Neverwinter Nights' editor - my mind conjured up vast epics that I had no hope of ever actually completing. Conversely, the game Spore had fairly strict limits on the degree of complexity for your creations - most notably for the planet quests you could make with one of the expansions - which I feel as a developer keeps things from getting out of hand.

That's why I chose to limit each AFC quest to a maximum of 36 screen-sized 'rooms', arranged in a 6x6 grid. That's more than enough to tell a short story that won't overstay its welcome.

I'd intend to do essentially the same thing with this, but in 3D - there are many benefits to using 3D over 2D now that I actually have the option - with the same 6x6 grid of 'rooms'.



During the early days of what became Atonal Dreams, I experimented with these room dioramas, which dissolved in and out as you moved between them. I remember the reaction to these being less than ecstatic, but I personally like them a whole lot, and feel that they'd work well for something like this. I could make them fairly quickly and easily too. They're not too dissimilar to Minecraft chunks, which a lot of people would have at least some familiarity with.



The Dialogue Arena

I don't really enjoy - and tend to put off - making the battle backgrounds/arenas for Atonal Dreams. But I do like how the game presents conversations, as can be seen in this outdated video from the main page (because I can't find any screenshots in my usual folders, bizarrely, and can't be bothered loading up the game to take one):



For this, I'm thinking that there should be no distinction between dialogue and 'battle' scenes. Whenever you talk to anyone, it opens up a 'dialogue arena', which fills the screen.


Very representative of final style.


The characters would stand on a round bit of ground representing the current room's tileset, and the background would show some kind of abstract visual effect not too dissimilar to Earthbound/Mother 3 battles. I'm thinking that the quest creator could specify the background effect for each character, meaning each one would have their own unique 'battle space', furthering the move away from battles being purely physical fights. Plus it'd just be easier to make since I can see full 3D battle arenas being too much of an investment.

So this arena would show up for every person you talked to, regardless of their importance. You'd have up to three characters, and characters on the map could have a 'party' of up to three specified too (with only the 'leader' appearing on the field). All characters would of course show on the battle arena.

Drawing on how I've set up Atonal Dreams behind the scenes, perhaps each conversation would be made up of several blocks, each with conditions for appearing and a list of dialogue lines. Each line would have an associated speaker, plus you could set up emotes - that is, changes to facial expression and pose - for as many characters as you wanted, using a system similar to what I'm using in Atonal Dreams.

Lines could also be used to execute commands, one of which would start the 'battle' mode. This would involve trading 'attacks' - actually silly social actions - to alter 'willpower' or 'conviction' or something.

Triggers for blocks could include things like 'Bobbert HP < 10%', meaning at the start of any turn, if Bobbert's HP was sufficiently low, that dialogue would play (once; it wouldn't repeat). Or 'Bobbert used Annoy on Trebbob', meaning the dialogue bit would trigger after that action had been used on that target. This is what I'm doing with Atonal Dreams' important story battles, and it should allow for more interesting scenarios than just silently fighting until defeat.


Battle Mechanics

I'd want to keep these 'battles' simple, with no character statistical growth like levels since the quests would be so short that there wouldn't be any point (though I'd like to hear thoughts about this).

I'd want to use the sentiments that I was intending to use in Belief, which come in three opposing pairs: Amity-Enmity, Joy-Sorrow, and Fear-Desire.

Characters might have three simple statistics corresponding to their ability to use and resist skills of these pairs, plus an HP equivalent stat.

I could also use the runes I'm using in Atonal Dreams since they're tied to and representative of personality and work well for social 'battles', though I know opinions of those haven't exactly been highly positive, and they might seem too arcane (even though they're not) to players with a casual investment.

I also like the idea of moods, which I had in Belief. They correspond to the sentiments, and characters can have up to three at a time; I like the comedy of causing someone to become simultaneously Angry, Crying, and Aroused as a result of your actions. They'd affect the effectiveness of sentiments, and I feel they're more interesting than status effects like poison etc.

Characters could equip a limited number (3, 4, or 6) of actions, each of which has a name, sentiment, rune, animation, particle effect, and list of effects like damage, rune shifts, etc. There'd be a bunch of these in the game for quest creators to use, but they could also make their own by combining the animations and status effects in amusing ways. They'd probably be acquired like spells were in the original AFC, as books.

No basic attacks though, so no need for weapons... though I feel there's a strong appeal in finding and equipping weapons, so maybe some equivalent? I'd definitely have equipment bits that show on character models; maybe I'd just increase the number of slots for those instead of adding a weapon equivalent? And since it's 3D there's a lot more potential to how different I could make characters look and behave.

One concern is that AFC had a bunch of monster types you could use, since they were mostly meant as battle fodder, though this might work better with just humans? If each battle action could have its own animation, then every model I added would have to have all those animations, which would be a lot of work if I added a bunch of different models. But just humans means no goblins, and I could see how that'd be unappealing.

I'm aware there's no consideration of speed here! That's something I'd need to think about.



There are many other details that I'd need to work out if I continued with the concept, but as a vague outline of how the game would generally work, does this seem interesting to you?

Oh, and this'd be something I'd put on Steam, probably, not a mobile game like the Figmon idea.

8 COMMENTS

phsc57~3Y
I don't have much to say about the game other than that the idea of allowing people to create things is amazing, however it does need people to... create things! and I don't know how that is going to happen, but if the tools are vast and the possibilities also are, a lot could be made and that is something that generally makes games very successful!

But about the depression part, I actually understand that, and a lot of people do, even people vastly different from you! but the issue is that often people don't get to experience such feelings, generally for different reasons, I mean depression is really wide and complicated, it has been extremely long since I've felt like that FOR REAL, as in like actually not wanting to live and do anything, the key for me is dopamine, generally what causes me to go like that is when things go terribly wrong, most my expectations and plans, like TERRIBLY wrong, and then I feel like that, but I try to remember the goal or whatever and think about it constantly and constantly and constantly which sort of builds the natural dopamine again right? so I want the goal, my mind is doing the weird mental masturbation related to that, and then motivation appears! but then you do need to have some sort of goal right? and time generally helps since you often forget bad things.
But yeah I get the weird pleasure out of being in such situation, it is funny because it oddly feels nostalgic and... good for me??? while I am pretty sure it was not good when I felt it to a pretty high degree a long time ago, anyway, don't give up!
What I try to remember is that things don't really matter, life is basically just null and void and there is not much to it, everybody will die and everything will be forgotten anyway! this does have other implications which I will not get into, but both doing something and doing nothing sort of have the same like value under such thinking, so it is just a matter of time until I decide to act in some way or another, and after a while it gets... boring?
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AdmiralLara49~3Y
Very nice that you've taken at least some of my advice. But I am confused, why are you so dedicated to making everything in 3d? You say it has its advantages, but it seems to me that the switch to 3d is when your productivity started to plummet. You seem to hate having to do modelling and making backgrounds, and they take you significantly longer
0
PerfectVanity27~3Y
I think what you have with AFC is a fantastic concept and, if done well, could be very successful even financially. Because of the creativity it encourages, it's much easier to build a living community around it than around a linear RPG or a mobile game.

And I think you should allow people to make longer adventures as well, even if the systems are primarily designed for shorter ones.
1
Tobias 1115~3Y
I'm thinking that if someone wanted to make a longer story, they could chain together a series of shorter quests (or whatever I decide to call them).
0
Maniafig222~3Y
That was already something you could do with AF:C! You could specify that a quest can load a completed save file from an old quest so stuff carries over. And of course you could also just make two quests and make the description of the second specify one is a sequel to another without the need to carry stuff over.
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Maniafig222~3Y
It's a shame to hear about the spike in depression, I hope the dark clouds pass soon. They always do eventually, as you've said before once they do.

I did enjoy what you showed of Belief. Though even before Belief you already experimented with the social combat idea as early as Clarence RPG, something I'd still like to see a continuation of, though I'm not really expecting to happen at this point.

One nice thing about AF:C quests is that they can be as short or long as someone wants them to be, the format works very well for short quests that you could make for someone's birthday, but you could also make quests that are a few hours long. Though the latter obviously does take a lot of time to create, it is possible given 36 rooms and 10 plot states. And like you say, grand FF-like epics are totally impossible, which is good since it limits scope creep!

There's both advantages and disadvantages to 3D. 3D in general probably seems less accessible to people relative to just plopping down one of 8 tiles in a 2D tileset, and the 2D tilesets in AF:C were so simple that adding more was probably quite easy. But 3D also has the advantage of letting you play more with depth and verticality, something that was very hard to do in AF:C, while also making AF:C stand out from other game maker tools kinda like this, which mostly seem to go for a very generic 2D FF-esque anime look. Think your default RPG maker game using the default tileset, they all have a very, well, boring look. Even AF:C itself had a more distinct look thanks to its cartoony aesthetic. 3D also probably looks nicer than 2D, the 2D tilesets in AF:C were so simple that they were also kind of ugly and repetitive. It was hard to make maps that look pretty in AF:C!

I dunno what my reaction was when you first showed them, but I like the room dioramas here. They're similar to the dioramas in AF:C, where every screen was its own chunk and could connect in interesting ways.

I am a bit confused about the dialogue arena stuff. Does every conversation go like that? Does it happen when examining furniture? What about conversations with more than 3 people on one side? A big strength of what made the dialogue editor in AF:C so good was how it was both incredibly accessible and easy to use while also being quite robust and letting you do most things you'd want out of a conversation.

That's what I think is the most important part of planning the actual mechanics of how a tool like this functions, it's best if mechanics are accessible and simple while also being as broadly applicable as possible and requiring as little effort on your end as possible. So a conversation system that can handle anywhere from a single person speaking, to over a dozen people speaking, super short or very long conversations, conversations with people showing different emotions and occupying a physical space without requiring a billion different animations.

I think the old conversation system worked really well for that! Every character had a default expression, but you could 'modify' it with two easy clicks by just choosing one of the many emoticons. You could put in special effects and sound effects with actions like "spell flash", which could be cut up into "visual effect" and "sound effect".

I think in many ways the dialogue arena you're proposing is a lot more limited than AF:C's dialogue system was, much like how AF:C's combat system was very limited. That's the reason why people used the dialogue system so much, it's really simple but you can do a whole lot with it.

If we look at every action currently in AF:C, you can see just why it's so robust:

-Attack/Attack+Music: A way to transition between dialogue and an actiony segment. Depending on how combat actions are flavoured, this can be used for pretty much anyhing. Ideally combat would be flavoured in a way to let people dress up combat as being anything they want, by keeping things very generic. (It was already possible to do rudimentary social combat simulation in AF:C, the only issues were physical attacks and the "damage" animations.)

-Remove/Spawn/Move/Face: These sets of actions give a sense of actual presence of the characters in the room, it makes the world feel more tangible if characters can physically move around as needed during a conversation. People leave when it's fitting, people can appear in places for specific purposes, people can move around as needed. The only action that's really missing is the ability to face specific directions rather than facing specific characters.

-Give/Take/Equip/Require Item: Aside from the expected usage of giving items to be used for opening locks, as part of quests (Give me X Goblin Earwaxes to proceed), the "item obtain" box can actually also be used for a huge amount of purposes as I mentioned in the previous blog. An action that just shows such an item box without actually handing you the item can be used for a ton of different things, if you just add a variety of custom items that can be shown in the box.

-Join/Leave Party, Become Player, Transform: Mostly just ways to influence party composition or have NPCs change mid-dialogue. Transform is interesting since you can use it to convey NPC's shapeshifting, or being affected during conversations. It's a way to strongly convey someone transforming, like when someone suddenly takes on a menacing expression when outed as a villain, like often happens in visual novels.

-Play music: Useful for setting the mood!

-Brief pause: Remarkably useful, often fits better than having boxes of ellipses.

-Spell Flash: Like I mentioned, this one can be cut into visual effect and sound effect to convey actions without needing it. Visual effects could be coloured flashes, but also screen shakes and the like. Sound effects can be anything from spell sounds to punch sounds to silly things like a duck quacking or a canned audience laughter or applause. Pretty much every sound effect you'd put in the game could be put into a separate bank with folders like the music is handled in AF:C to be used like this.

One thing which is missing in AF:C is the ability to spawn/remove non-characters, something like being able to spawn/remove a rock in a specific tile. Currently the way to do that would be to make a separate quest state where that object is (non)existent, which is a lot of hoopla for a simple action.

Aside from that every text box also has a speaker, which can be any entity including entities not on the map (narrators, etc.) or signs/examinables. The text can include things like symbols as well as coloured-text. And of course every text box has a broad selection of accompanying emoticons to convey expression without needing to program in every possible expression for every possible entity. That's why you could have anything, whether it's a human or a goblin or a dog or a ghost make every type of expression without needing any extra animation. I could take Caoimhe and transform her into a Goblin and it wouldn't really change too much, aside from of course making the quest better because Goblin.

Of course you can still take this conversation system and add the encounter system on top of that, that's how AF:C handles it with its combat system. Ideas like mid-encounter dialogue triggers are a good idea, they make encounters a lot more interesting, but they'd also add a lot of complexity since suddenly an encounter is a lot more than just one "fight" command in a conversation.

As for encounter mechanics, I personally never really used character progression that much so I wouldn't miss it. Leveling feels kinda pointless when you can just use equipment instead to simulate growth. Leveling also ran into the issue where the EXP formulas in general were predetermined rather than customisable.

Ideally a player could be able to set their own elements, that way encounters could be social or violent depending on what the questmaker wants to go for. Maybe it could be as simple as having them be colour-coded and letting the player choose between sentiments or elements?

I think it's best to not use Runes, like you say they seem consistently hard to understand for people who're unfamiliar with them and probably don't add enough flavour to need to be added.

Moods can be added in addition to simple status effects I think, AF:C did have some status effects itself.

I think only having humans would really limit the amount of stories you could tell with the engine, I think it's better for the game to have more types of characters and a less deep and involved encounter system that needs less animations. The non-humans were meant as battle fodder, but they were much more useful in practice as more things you could use in the dialogue system.

Overall I think it's best to focus on what made AF:C good, which is the dialogue editor, map editor and the NPC customization, rather than focusing too much on trying to make the encounter engine engaging. An encounter system is much more limited by your efforts, while the dialogue system is much more limited by the player's efforts. You get more returns of effort spent on making the dialogue system simple and robust than spending the same amount of effort on crafting the encounter system. That's something that other RPG makers can already do very well, after all.
1
Tobias 1115~3Y
You've probably played around with AFC more than even I have, so I appreciate your thoughts about this! The things you mentioned here inspired me to take things in a different direction, and I've been brainstorming a bit; I'll write a new blog post about it!
1
purplerabbits147~3Y
I feel you about Depression hitting a bit hard. I suspect mine may be related to season affective since "winter" is when the California skies are cloudy in the morning.

You know the mention about mot people ignoring the battle mechanics over social interactions kinda reflects how many rpg maker games also just flat out ignore the battle mechanics. A few examples I can think off are The Witches House, The Crooked Man, Medieval Cop. I can only really think of two that are sort of well know that have the battle mechanics which are Off and The Gray Garden.
1
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